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Post by celawson on Jan 20, 2018 16:12:00 GMT -5
I have my opinion, and it will be no surprise to anyone. Why can't Congress be more functional? I'm disgusted. One side effect of Trump is that the Dems hate him so much they will try to have the GOP fail at any cost. It seems to me that adults trying to act like adults could have reached a compromise here.
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Post by nighttimer on Jan 20, 2018 17:13:39 GMT -5
I have my opinion, and it will be no surprise to anyone. Why can't Congress be more functional? I'm disgusted. One side effect of Trump is that the Dems hate him so much they will try to have the GOP fail at any cost. It seems to me that adults trying to act like adults could have reached a compromise here. It seems to me agreeing to a bad deal just to get a deal should be a deal-breaker. I'm glad the Dems grew a spine rather than roll over and play dead to appease the mouth-foaming Faux News mob. If Dems hate Trump its due in part because Trump hates Dems. It's really hard to make a deal with a fucking man-child who changes his mind depending on who talked to him last. Or don't you recall a few weeks ago when Trump had legislators in from both parties for his dog and pony show, he said he would " sign anything" on immigration. "I'm not going to say 'oh gee I want this or I want that' I will be signing it"Lie. The only time Trump doesn't lie is when he's asleep and even then he's lying on his back dreaming about being really being 6-3 and 239lbs when he's neither. You want Congress to be more functional? Functional how? By passing another short-term, stop-gap, do nothing "deal" that keeps the checks coming and the lights on for federal agencies and does NOTHING for DACA, holds the CHIP program hostage as a bargaining chip and maintains a broken status quo. You're disgusted? Oh, but you weren't disgusted by "shithole countries?" You weren't disgusted by "good people on both sides" including Nazis, Klansmen and other White supremacist trash? You weren't disgusted by "grab 'em by the pussy?" I submit your "disgust" is feigned and situational. You're disgusted when Democrats don't bend over and let Trump drive. You're dead silent when he shits all over the honor and principles and virtues of the presidency and the country. The Dems don't have to obstruct the Repubs. You've got plenty of Repubs who are willing to do that all by themselves including the four GOP Senators who voted against budget reconciliation including Rand Paul, Lindsay Graham and Mike Lee. Five Democrats voted for it including newly-elected Doug Jones. This is what happens when Republicans are given control of the House, the Senate and the presidency: They blame Democrats for their own failure to govern. Compound that with a twit who can't control his mouth or his libido a nd the result is a Trump-made mess. Ultimately, the only way a deal gets done is when the actual adults in the room kick the man-baby out of it, work out a deal, and allow Trump do what best: pound Big Macs the way he pounds porn skanks, wash it down with a dozen Diet Cokes, and Tweet his fat little fingers away bragging about the size of the button on his desk (the button that notifies the White House staff to send over more Big Macs, Diet Cokes and silicone grown porn skanks).
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Post by Deleted on Jan 20, 2018 17:45:45 GMT -5
This is on Trump and the Republicans, entirely. I'm disgusted they tried to make the Dems choosebetween the Dreamers and CHIP, both of which should be no brainers. I'm glad the Dems grew a spine.
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Post by michaelw on Jan 20, 2018 17:49:04 GMT -5
I've never even heard of a shutdown where Congress and the White House were under control of the same party, but maybe my political memory doesn't stretch far enough?
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Post by Deleted on Jan 20, 2018 18:25:30 GMT -5
I've never even heard of a shutdown where Congress and the White House were under control of the same party, but maybe my political memory doesn't stretch far enough? I believe this is the first. It's hilarious that anyone would blame the Dems, given that the GOP controls everything and failed to get the votes of four members of their own party in the Senate -- and when they would have had the votes for a bipartisan compromise. Also hilarious that they are trying to pin the CHIP thing on the Dems when it's the GOP who's been playing games with it. Trump himself would agree it's his own fault for his lousy leadership -- or at least he thought it was all down to Obama's lack of leadership when the 2013 shutdown happened. www.snopes.com/trump-criticize-obama-shutdown/I currently feel about the GOP and our government the way my neighbor feels about his teenage son and his apartment -- we cannot trust them with the keys. I'll be voting a straight blue ticket in 2018 and 2020, because that's what it's going to take to get some balance back in our government.
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Post by Don on Jan 20, 2018 18:32:56 GMT -5
"Giving money and power to government is like giving whiskey and car keys to teenage boys." – P.J. O'Rourke
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Post by Deleted on Jan 20, 2018 18:46:28 GMT -5
There's always a tweet.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 20, 2018 20:13:14 GMT -5
This thread needs a poll. I'm tempted to abuse use my Mod Powerz to add one.
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Post by celawson on Jan 20, 2018 21:43:48 GMT -5
If the Democrats cast most of the votes that caused the shutdown, and the Republicans had reasonable offers for the Dems, and the Repubs couldn't reach 60 votes on their own, how again is the shutdown the Repubs fault?
I will give Trump some blame here, but the Dems are being entirely unreasonable.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 20, 2018 21:57:07 GMT -5
There's this little thing they call negotiating that you're supposed to do when you want votes from the other side. Perhaps you've heard of it. Or, wait, you think the Dems should just cave because...why, exactly?
Usually I'm hanging on tenterhooks when shutdowns occur, hoping for agreement. Now I want the Dems to stick to their guns.
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Post by celawson on Jan 20, 2018 22:28:07 GMT -5
Lovely sarcasm from you as usual. But I will play along for a few minutes. So...negotiating usually means coming to some sort of middle ground, or at least something palatable for both sides. The Republicans have offered DREAM amnesty. All they want in return is some tightening of the borders including the wall, and moving towards merit-based immigration. But that wasn't good enough now that the Dems are all in a tizzy at Trump.
So the Republicans then tried to put off the immigration issue - we have some time until March after all. They tried to fund the government and extend the Children's Health program (CHIP). Unless my memory serves me wrong, the Dems like CHIP. But I guess that's not good enough for the Dems now, either. Why don't you go and explain negotiating to Shutdown Schumer? He obviously forgot the definition.
Just what "guns" do you want the Dems to stick to?
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Post by nighttimer on Jan 21, 2018 1:34:12 GMT -5
"Giving money and power to government is like giving whiskey and car keys to teenage boys." – P.J. O'Rourke "Let us never forget that government is ourselves and not an alien power over us. The ultimate rulers of our democracy are not a President and senators and congressmen and government officials, but the voters of this country." -- Franklin D. Roosevelt If the Democrats cast most of the votes that caused the shutdown, and the Republicans had reasonable offers for the Dems, and the Repubs couldn't reach 60 votes on their own, how again is the shutdown the Repubs fault? I will give Trump some blame here, but the Dems are being entirely unreasonable. What constitutes a reasonable offer for the Democrats? Going along with the Republicans holding CHIP hostage despite the fact they can't even use the cost of the program as an excuse against reauthorizing it?Republicans don't care if 9 million poor kids lose their health insurance because all CHIP is to them is a bargaining chip. The Repubs didn't have 60 votes to put Neil Gorsuch on the stolen Supreme Court seat, but they gamed the Senate rules to get him over the hump. Go ahead and try that shit again. You'll be on the sidelines waving pom-poms and cheering them on just as you did when the Republicans denied Merrick Garland even the courtesy of meeting with him. As long as the Republicans cynically and spitefully obstructed President Obama, I don't recall a single, mumbling mutter about how that screw job was entirely unreasonable. Lovely sarcasm from you as usual. But I will play along for a few minutes. So...negotiating usually means coming to some sort of middle ground, or at least something palatable for both sides. The Republicans have offered DREAM amnesty. All they want in return is some tightening of the borders including the wall, and moving towards merit-based immigration. But that wasn't good enough now that the Dems are all in a tizzy at Trump. So the Republicans then tried to put off the immigration issue - we have some time until March after all. They tried to fund the government and extend the Children's Health program (CHIP). Unless my memory serves me wrong, the Dems like CHIP. But I guess that's not good enough for the Dems now, either. Why don't you go and explain negotiating to Shutdown Schumer? He obviously forgot the definition. If Shutdown Schumer forgot the definition, he'd still have the advantage over President Pussygrabber who never knew it. But it is lovely how you ignore the facts you can't disprove. Why hasn't Mr. Art of the Deal wrapped this up and delivered on DACA, the Dreamers and his damn wall all at the same time? Too busy shagging porn skanks and now he's all tuckered out?
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Post by Don on Jan 21, 2018 4:05:05 GMT -5
"Let us never forget that government is ourselves and not an alien power over us. The ultimate rulers of our democracy are not a President and senators and congressmen and government officials, but the voters of this country." -- Franklin D. Roosevelt Were voters given a choice to not destroy the inner cities with a bogus war on drugs? Were voters given a choice not to invade country after country and destroy our personal liberties at home with a nebulous war with no possible exit strategy? Was it Hillary or The Donald we were supposed to vote for to end those two crimes against humanity?
Being given the option of selecting one from column A or one from column B when both options are detrimental to one's well-being is hardly being in control of the situation. Being "free" to choose between Hillary and The Donald is the equivalent of being "free" to choose between lethal injection and the firing squad. Here's the dirty secret: Priests always blame the sinners. The guiltless person doesn't fall for the con. And the sinners are foolish enough to believe they are the cause of their own problems. I guess I should not find it surprising that politics is the only area where victim-blaming is still an acceptable mode of discourse. 545 people are responsible for the mess, but they unite in a common con
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Post by Deleted on Jan 21, 2018 9:41:34 GMT -5
Lovely sarcasm from you as usual. But I will play along for a few minutes. So...negotiating usually means coming to some sort of middle ground, or at least something palatable for both sides. The Republicans have offered DREAM amnesty. All they want in return is some tightening of the borders including the wall, and moving towards merit-based immigration. But that wasn't good enough now that the Dems are all in a tizzy at Trump. So the Republicans then tried to put off the immigration issue - we have some time until March after all. They tried to fund the government and extend the Children's Health program (CHIP). Unless my memory serves me wrong, the Dems like CHIP. But I guess that's not good enough for the Dems now, either. Why don't you go and explain negotiating to Shutdown Schumer? He obviously forgot the definition. Just what "guns" do you want the Dems to stick to? Ah, GOP talking points. Both CHIP and DACA are no brainers that have strong bipartisan support across the country that should have been wrapped up with a bow long ago. But they haven't been, because Republicans have dodged and delayed and played games, all so they could hold Democrats hostage now to get fucking wall funding (the Dems have OKed some border security money. It's that fucking absurd amount for that silly wall they object to.) NO. At a minimum, both DACA and CHIP now, or I will petition my Senators to hold out forever. By the way, if you didn't notice, four Republican Senators aren't voting "yes" either. The GOP can't even get its own party pulled together on this mess. So much for the art of the deal. ETA: Not to mention there IS a goddamn bipartisan bill. Rand Paul, of all people, told Jake Tapper he wants McConnell to put it up for vote. Rumor has it there ARE enough votes (bipartisan even!) to pass it. But McConnell is refusing. ETA: Then there's this: This is mostly about Trump making an untenable promise for a YUUUUUUGE wall that only his hardcore base wants -- and that Mexico would pay for it. Mexico ain't gonna pay for it. So now the GOP is holding CHIP and DACA hostage in order to get the American taxpayers to pay for it, and then trying to blame the Democrats for hurting poor kids and military personnel. It is such hypocritical bullshit. What the GOP is doing, I promise you, is pushing moderates towards the Democrats because they are making themselves such an utterly unpalatable choice. And there are plenty of prominent conservatives who agree, people who normally have fallen in pretty much lockstep with the GOP for decades -- but not this administration. That is my sole grim comfort in this mess -- though I hope what ultimately emerges are at least two (and hey, three would be good) viable parties, where I fall in more with one, occasionally quibble with all, but don't regard any party likely to win as a fucking danger to our republic (which is, I'm afraid, how I regard the current president and GOPers in power overall). To note, I would very much welcome a new party started by principled NeverTrump conservatives such as, e.g., Evan McMullin. I'd like to see them gain power and shove the current hypocritical, contaminated mess of a GOP aside. I firmly believe America needs a viable center-right party as well as a center-left party to keep balance and keep the crazies at bay.
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Post by nighttimer on Jan 21, 2018 12:06:35 GMT -5
"Let us never forget that government is ourselves and not an alien power over us. The ultimate rulers of our democracy are not a President and senators and congressmen and government officials, but the voters of this country." -- Franklin D. Roosevelt Were voters given a choice to not destroy the inner cities with a bogus war on drugs? Were voters given a choice not to invade country after country and destroy our personal liberties at home with a nebulous war with no possible exit strategy? Was it Hillary or The Donald we were supposed to vote for to end those two crimes against humanity?
Being given the option of selecting one from column A or one from column B when both options are detrimental to one's well-being is hardly being in control of the situation. Being "free" to choose between Hillary and The Donald is the equivalent of being "free" to choose between lethal injection and the firing squad. Here's the dirty secret: Priests always blame the sinners. The guiltless person doesn't fall for the con. And the sinners are foolish enough to believe they are the cause of their own problems. I guess I should not find it surprising that politics is the only area where victim-blaming is still an acceptable mode of discourse. 545 people are responsible for the mess, but they unite in a common conExcuse me, but your superiority complex is showing. You might want to cover that thing up. You disagree with FDR? Try some Pogo: We get the government we deserve and "we" includes you. You think because you're a bird who sees the bars of the cage he was born and raised in, this makes you special? If government sucks what it is you've done to make it less sucky? What have YOU done about the destroyed inner cities? What are YOU doing to prevent invasions of foreign countries and the erosion of individual rights and freedoms? Pontificating on debate boards? Oooooo...impressive. You're not special. Your taxes pay for the dirty wars, the arms sales, the drug dealing, the rape of the environment, the persecution of the poor, the locking up of the Black and the Brown and all the other evil shit "gubbment" gets into. You're not unique and you're not above it all. You're down here in the muck and mire right along with the rest of us and the sun doesn't shine any brighter on your ass. Quoting yourself does not make you a rare breed or a rugged individualist. You're just another cog in the machine and when you are of no more use to the machine, they'll throw you out on the scrap heap and replace you with two just like you. Oh, and fuck P.J. O'Rourke. He was never one of the funniest guys at the National Lampoon. Just one of the most insufferably smug and whitest of White guys I've ever read. Whiteness exudes from every pore of O'Rourke like a Wonder Bread mayonnaise sandwich dipped in marshmallow sauce.
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