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Post by celawson on Jan 21, 2018 12:11:12 GMT -5
Ah, Cassandra, more of your Democrat talking points. Let's state this clearly - The GOP has already offered a solution for Dreamers whereby they could stay in this country legally. And the GOP clearly wants to fund CHIP. Those aren't the issues, yet you and other Dems talk like those evil GOPers want to defund children's health care and deport all the Dreamers. Seriously? The sticking points are the border wall and merit-based immigration. When Trump wants 20 or 30 billion dollars for the wall, and Shutdown Schumer offers 1.8 billion and continued chain migration, why shouldn't the GOP say "no deal"? BTW, DACA expires in March. Just watch how amenable Dems will become to compromise as that date nears. Here's an example: thehill.com/homenews/house/369945-gutierrez-ready-to-give-in-on-wallWhy should Trump cave on the wall or chain migration? He's got the upper hand right now. Heck, even Schumer agreed about merit based immigration, and he's on record from some years ago:
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Post by Deleted on Jan 21, 2018 12:33:30 GMT -5
How fun it is to watch you wring your hands and tsk tsk about the EEEvviilll Democrats refusing to compromise -- all the while advocating for the Republicans to use their "upper hand" and hold the Dreamers hostage to get their way on immigration policies that only the hardcore Republicans want.
What the Democrats want here is stuff most people in America want. Here's some bad news for you and the GOP -- the Democratic base and a big pile of moderates and even a good-sized set of conservatives is fully on board with the Democrats holding fast. Indeed, Democrats in Congress who don't will pay for it. We do not trust that McConnell or Trump will do shit for the Dreamers or CHIP otherwise.
I actually will personally suffer from the government shutdown, as will people I hold dear. At this point, it is a price I am happy to pay -- because you know what? We'll all suffer, as will the country as a whole, if they cave to this administration.
It should actually bother you that people like me and a couple of others on this board are as firmly entrenched as we are against this administration. Remember us? We're the ones who have often been shot down for being closet hard-core conservatives for often criticizing liberal positions and politicians, and sticking up for some conservative ones. It should also bother you that a pile of long-time prominent conservatives have turned so strongly NeverTrump. When, tell me, has that happened before? But at this point those still on the Trump Train are so in the tank they just chuck everyone who isn't into the Biased Liberal Extremist camp and dismiss them. You focus in on some narrow stuff and plant your flag there, ignoring the context of the much larger scheme of what's been happening over the past year -- e.g., you jump on "oh, a not quite perfectly accurate headline on CNN! The MSM is fake news!" But ignore the enormous, obvious campaign of unapologetically fake news streaming out of Fox etc. You focus in on "oh, look, McConnell is willing to make this wee concession!" But ignore months of events that make that "concession" meaningless.
I believe with every atom of my being you're way on the wrong side of history, but time will tell.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 21, 2018 13:14:16 GMT -5
Democrats, soooo unreasonable in not trusting McConnell and Trump to come through on promises...
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Post by celawson on Jan 21, 2018 13:24:49 GMT -5
The above is a pretty arrogant post. But it's quite consistent with your prior posts here, and it's pretty consistent with the educated elite Democrats' arrogance that helped Hillary lose a year ago.
It's also interesting that you think I'm hand wringing. I'm annoyed that Congress couldn't come to an agreement, and I'm more annoyed with the Democrats, because I think they are more to blame. But I'm not hand-wringing. As a matter of fact, I'm usually one of those here who counteracts the Trump end-of-the-world hysteria with a calmer perspective.
I'm told I plant my flag on some narrow stuff and stay there. Yet I'm trying to look beyond Trump's personality flaws to what the administration is doing which is good for this country. I can see beyond his faults (and what POTUS has not had faults?) and remain confident that he and his administration are doing things I am in agreement with, that Hillary would have been doing the opposite of. Never Trumpers cannot see beyond their Trump hatred, and it clouds their objectivity about policy implementation that they would be ecstatic about if anyone other than Trump were in the WH. Talk about flag planting.
Oh? Like what? A conservative and highly intelligent Supreme Court Justice? The obliteration of Isis in Syria? A booming stock market? Tax cuts and reform that are putting thousands of dollars into the average citizen's pocket? Cutting stupid and wasteful regulations from the EPA? Decreasing Presidential overreach? Increasing our border security? Strengthening and supporting our military? Zinging the biased U.N.? Pulling out of the Paris Climate agreement? Asking NATO to pay its fair share? Standing by our ally Israel?
I am happy about everything I just listed, Trump's failings or not, and I am confident these all will fall on the right side of history.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 21, 2018 13:36:59 GMT -5
Oh, you've joined the anti-globalist coastal educated elite squad. I suppose that shouldn't surprise me.
I'm happy and proud of the globalist coastal educated elite company I'm keeping on left, right, and center. You know, I'll actually grant that occasionally some of the stuff on the left -- some, occasionally -- goes a bit over the top. But it's not nearly, NEARLY, nowhere in the same universe as crazy as what's happening among hard-core Trump supporters. And I'm with Bill Kristol on this (as I am with many things these days):
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Post by Vince524 on Jan 21, 2018 14:05:36 GMT -5
I'm blaming my sister in law.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 21, 2018 14:08:18 GMT -5
I'm blaming my sister in law. From what I recall of what you've said about her, she might well have something to do with it.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 21, 2018 14:17:16 GMT -5
Graham on the negotiations:
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Post by Deleted on Jan 21, 2018 14:59:47 GMT -5
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Post by Deleted on Jan 21, 2018 17:11:55 GMT -5
Jeff Flake:
ETA:
There's a reason I'm quoting conservatives and Republicans here. It isn't just the Democrats who think the Democrats are not the bad guys in this shutdown.
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Post by celawson on Jan 21, 2018 17:15:16 GMT -5
Rick Wilson is one of the most rabid Trump haters out there. If I didn't know that already, I'd know it by your excerpt above -- "co-President Steven Miller", "racial obsessions with immigrants", "the past 20 years shutdown fights over spending resolutions and debt limits resulted from Republicans trying to use their status in the minority to leverage a political impact.", "black-hole singularity of an attention-seeking President", "The orange guy, and his minions." "Trump’s wee little raccoon hands." Lordy, there are a few more, but it's not worth my time. So that's what you read from "Republicans"? Well, thank you for another example of Trump Derangement Syndrome. While I'm here, I will add this: www.cnn.com/2018/01/21/politics/rand-paul-immigration-deal-cnntv/index.htmlRand Paul says Dems Spiked his Immigration Compromise to End Shutdown
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Post by Deleted on Jan 21, 2018 17:21:55 GMT -5
You know what, c.e.? You're right. This isn't worth spending time on. I shall not attempt to engage with you anymore.
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Post by nighttimer on Jan 21, 2018 18:09:56 GMT -5
The above is a pretty arrogant post. But it's quite consistent with your prior posts here, and it's pretty consistent with the educated elite Democrats' arrogance that helped Hillary lose a year ago. It's also interesting that you think I'm hand wringing. I'm annoyed that Congress couldn't come to an agreement, and I'm more annoyed with the Democrats, because I think they are more to blame. But I'm not hand-wringing. As a matter of fact, I'm usually one of those here who counteracts the Trump end-of-the-world hysteria with a calmer perspective. I'm told I plant my flag on some narrow stuff and stay there. Yet I'm trying to look beyond Trump's personality flaws to what the administration is doing which is good for this country. I can see beyond his faults (and what POTUS has not had faults?) and remain confident that he and his administration are doing things I am in agreement with, that Hillary would have been doing the opposite of. Never Trumpers cannot see beyond their Trump hatred, and it clouds their objectivity about policy implementation that they would be ecstatic about if anyone other than Trump were in the WH. Talk about flag planting. Oh? Like what? A conservative and highly intelligent Supreme Court Justice? The obliteration of Isis in Syria? A booming stock market? Tax cuts and reform that are putting thousands of dollars into the average citizen's pocket? Cutting stupid and wasteful regulations from the EPA? Decreasing Presidential overreach? Increasing our border security? Strengthening and supporting our military? Zinging the biased U.N.? Pulling out of the Paris Climate agreement? Asking NATO to pay its fair share? Standing by our ally Israel? I am happy about everything I just listed, Trump's failings or not, and I am confident these all will fall on the right side of history. Enough. I'm over this. Your conservative and highly intelligent Supreme Court Justice occupies the seat which should have gone to a moderate and highly intelligent Supreme Court Justice who couldn't even a hearing from an obstructionist right-wing Republican minority. The obliteration of ISIS in Syria was set in motion by the Obama Administration and the Trump Administration was the beneficiary of it, though Trump being the greedy swine he is takes all the credit. The booming stock market boomed even better in the first year of Bush43 and Obama. Those tax cuts and reform that may put thousands of dollars into the average citizen's pocket will actually put billions of dollars into bank accounts of the average wealthy and the coffers of corporate interests.Besides Trump's EPA cutting "stupid and wasteful regulations," here's some other things Trump and his gang have done to the environment. Most of National Parks Advisory Board Resigns in Protest Report: Climate Change Web Sites 'Censored' Under Trump Trump Interior Department Declares That Accidental Bird Deaths Are Legal Trump Drops Climate Change From List of National Security Threats Trump Unveils Plan to Dramatically Downsize Two National Monuments Interior Department Proposes Largest-Ever Oil and Gas Lease Auction Trump EPA Poised to Scrap Clean Power Plan Mining Health Study Halted; Climate Advisory Panel Disbanded Trump Revokes Flood Standards Accounting For Sea-Level Rise Report: EPA Enforcement Lags Under Trump NOAA Cancels Rule To Protect Whales From Fishing Nets U.S. Pulls Out of Paris Climate Agreement EPA Dismisses Science Advisors EPA Scrubs Climate Change WebsiteTrump has decreased presidential overreach? With few legislative accomplishments from the Republican-controlled Congress beyond passing tax cuts for the rich and corporations Trump has eaten well on executive orders he once derided. You say Trump has increased border security? How's that when Border Patrol staffing is lower now than it was at any point in the Obama Administration?Oh yeah. REAL secure. The coward who had five deferments to avoid service and has not strengthened nor supported the military. This is how Trump supports our fallen soldiers. This is how Trump supports our generals: I was never a fan of Colin Powell after his weak understanding of weapons of mass destruction in Iraq = disaster. We can do much better!General John Allen, who I never met but spoke against me last night, failed badly in his fight against ISIS. His record = BAD #NeverHillaryThis is how Trump treats our veterans. Then there's this:And of course, there was this... What you call "zinging" the biased United Nations is actually bashing the U.N. by a biased xenophobic isolationist. Trump pulling the U.S. out of the Paris Climate agreement literally means standing all by itself. NOBODY has Trump's back here. 196 parties of the Paris Agreement Afghanistan Albania Algeria Andorra* Angola Antigua and Barbuda Argentina Armenia Australia Austria Azerbaijan The Bahamas Bahrain Bangladesh Barbados Belarus Belgium Belize Benin Bhutan Bolivia Bosnia and Herzegovina Botswana Brazil Brunei Darussalam Bulgaria Burkina Faso Burundi Cambodia Cameroon Canada Cape Verde Central African Republic Chad Chile China Colombia Comoros Congo Cook Islands* Costa Rica Croatia Cuba Cyprus Czech Republic Democratic Republic of Congo Denmark Djibouti Dominica Dominican Republic Ecuador Egypt El Salvador Equatorial Guinea Eritrea Estonia Ethiopia European Union Fiji Finland France Gabon Gambia Georgia Germany Ghana Greece Grenada Guatemala Guinea Guinea-Bissau Guyana Haiti Honduras Hungary Iceland India Indonesia Iran Iraq Ireland Israel Italy Ivory Coast Jamaica Japan Jordan Kazakhstan Kenya Kiribati* Kuwait Kyrgyzstan Laos Latvia Lebanon Lesotho Liberia Libya Liechtenstein* Lithuania Luxembourg Macedonia Madagascar Malawi Malaysia Maldives* Mali Malta Marshall Islands* Mauritania Mauritius* Mexico Micronesia* Moldova Monaco* Mongolia Montenegro* Morocco Mozambique Myanmar Namibia Nauru* Nepal Netherlands New Zealand Nicaragua Niger Nigeria Niue* North Korea Norway Oman Pakistan Palau* Palestinian Authority* Panama Papua New Guinea Paraguay Peru Philippines Poland Portugal Qatar Romania Russia Rwanda Samoa San Marino* Sao Tome and Principe Saudi Arabia Senegal Serbia* Seychelles Sierra Leone Singapore Slovakia Slovenia Solomon Islands Somalia South Africa South Korea South Sudan* Spain Sri Lanka St. Kitts and Nevis* St. Lucia St. Vincent and the Grenadines Sudan Suriname Swaziland Sweden Switzerland Syria Tajikistan Tanzania Thailand Timor-Leste Togo Tonga Trinidad and Tobago Tunisia Turkey Turkmenistan Tuvalu Uganda Ukraine United Arab Emirates United Kingdom Uruguay Uzbekistan Vanuatu Venezuela Vietnam Yemen Zambia Zimbabwe
*Emissions data not available from the World Bank after 2000. 1 country not part of the agreement: “They (Germany) pay FAR LESS than they should on NATO & military. Very bad for U.S. This will change.” United States
That's 196 nations for the Paris Climate accord and one against. But you say that's okay and a good thing. 196 nations are wrong and America Fuck Yeah is right? Okay. You be you. Obviously you are Always Trumpers and can't or won't see beyond your Trump love, and it clouds your objectivity about policy implementation that you would enraged about if anyone other than Trump were in the WH. That's not flag planting. That's magical thinking. You claim Trump deserves kudos for demanding NATO pay it's "fair share." Yeah, that's always guaranteed to send a shiver up the leg of the jingoistic Right, but here's the hell of it. It just ain't so.
Standing by our ally Israel means alienating the rest of America's allies in the Middle East, does this truly enhance this country's national security or weaken it?Mike Pence is avoiding the Trump Shutdown by hopping around the Middle East and he's already got a blistering earload from the Egyptians and Jordanians. Supporting Israel to appease right-wing evangelicals comes at a cost in how the U.S. engages Arab nations in the Middle East. I am well aware you won't attempt to rebut this lengthy deconstruction of your Always Trump love. I'm sure you prefer engaging in snarky slapdowns to actually defending Trump's indefensible presidency. I just wanted you to know how easy it is to expose the falsity of the Always Trump crowd. They reside in an airless bubble of confirmation bias where fake news and alternate facts sustain them in blissful ignorance sheltered from the unpleasant intrusion of the facts.
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Post by Amadan on Jan 21, 2018 18:24:20 GMT -5
The above is a pretty arrogant post. But it's quite consistent with your prior posts here, and it's pretty consistent with the educated elite Democrats' arrogance that helped Hillary lose a year ago. It's also interesting that you think I'm hand wringing. I'm annoyed that Congress couldn't come to an agreement, and I'm more annoyed with the Democrats, because I think they are more to blame. But I'm not hand-wringing. As a matter of fact, I'm usually one of those here who counteracts the Trump end-of-the-world hysteria with a calmer perspective. Almost no one here engages in Trump end-of-the-world hysteria. You are "calm" in that you usually adopt a nice Church Lady tone, but like the nice Church Lady, your "niceness" is just a mask for judgmental posturing. I mean, seriously, you're going with the "educated elite Democrats" line now? I suppose doctors don't fall into the "educated elite" category? You know there are only a few reasons people fling "educated elite" around as disparaging terms, right? Either to appeal to the presumed "base" (of working class folks who have been groomed to mistrust education and expertise in favor of rhetoric and populism) or as "anti-global elite" sentiments which is usually very thinly veiled anti-Semitism. There is a reason the alt-right has been talking up the (((educated elite))) for the past couple of years - they are just being less shy about what they mean. Your arguments are transparently reflexive and partisan. The GOP controls the White House and Congress, but it's the Democrats' fault for a lack of compromise? Why don't you spell out what the Democrats should agree to in order to pass a budget? Because you are using "compromise" the way most ideologues do - what you really mean is "surrender." Compromise implies both sides have to settle for something less than what they want if they got to have everything their way.
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Post by prozyan on Jan 21, 2018 18:49:32 GMT -5
Gotta side with the Dems here, or perhaps more accurately side against the Republican leadership. I do not really blame Trump all that much. Everyone knows what Trump is: a loud mouthed infant with no true political power. It is the Republican leadership that for some unfathomable reason continues to kowtow to him rather than doing their job. When their actions make Rand freaking Paul seem reasonable there is serious dysfunction going on. I cannot understand the reasoning to not oppose Trump. A half breathing Republican candidate should be able to knock Trump out of the primary next year and angering Trump's base is not something any politician should fear.
On another subject, Trump deserves zero credit for the current beast mode of a stock market we are enjoying right now. The only credit that could possibly be given to him concerning it is that he has stayed the hell out of the way and not screwed it up.
The situation with ISIS, however, I will give him some credit, but it is in the same vein as credit for the stock market. The recent success against ISIS has come as a result of direct control being returned to the commanders on the ground rather than being centralized in Washington. In other words the conflict is no longer being micro managed from Washington as it was under the Obama administration. The credit Trump gets is, like the stock market, for not getting directly involved and screwing it up.
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