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Post by Deleted on Jan 22, 2018 23:10:29 GMT -5
Nighttimer, I am really, really, truly sorry about your brother. I hope he'll be OK. Sending good thoughts your way.
FWIW, I'm pretty much 100% in agreement with everything you've said in this thread and with what you've said about this president, so there's only so far out there you can be.
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Post by prozyan on Jan 23, 2018 7:15:46 GMT -5
Why do Republicans win elections? Because Democrats can't get their shit together....as evidenced by this latest debacle.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 23, 2018 8:19:27 GMT -5
Agree, prozyan.
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Post by Amadan on Jan 23, 2018 9:08:55 GMT -5
I'm also going to say I agree with everything NT said. And express my wishes for your brother's recovery.
Also, FWIW, while you hold me in contempt, I do not hold you in contempt. You piss me off and it's probably fair to say I do dislike you, but not because you're black. We're never going to break bread. That said, I was telling the truth a while ago (during your "vacation") when I said I really don't want you driven away. Maybe there is something to what you say about needing someone to rattle cages and piss people off. That doesn't mean I accept your framing of yourself as the guy speaking Truth to Power on behalf of Black America to all of us racist white people, but we do need that mix of (sometimes angrily) oppositional viewpoints. And if it means anything to you, you have occasionally shifted my thinking a bit.
We'll probably always think of each other as insufferable assholes. But may your brother recover and may you be able to return here throwing punches and sneers without this weighing on you.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 23, 2018 9:29:24 GMT -5
FWIW, this thread is a pretty excellent example, IMO, of people getting in each other's faces, vehemently disagreeing, attacking their views and words (and, heh, thoroughly pissing each other off) without anyone quite crossing the line.
ETA:
And if you don't mind my saying so, NT, this thread is also, IMO, you bringing a great game. You said what I wanted to say, but you did it far better. But taking aside that I agree with you -- you were searing, thoughtful, supported what you said, didn't hold back an inch on substance, were extremely effective, and you weren't sweet -- but you never crossed the line from vehemently attacking views into personal attack.
For whatever it's worth, this is the game that makes me want you here punching.
Take care of your brother and yourself. Come back and bring this game -- needless to say, including against me, Rob, Amadan, etc.
(I felt the need to say that because I think sometimes you think no one wants you here. And that's not true.)
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Post by celawson on Jan 23, 2018 11:49:03 GMT -5
That's classic nighttimer. I wish I could write like he does.
I'm so sorry to hear your news, NT. I'm going to PM you.
RL hit me too. I'm off to my elderly aunt's house this morning and will likely have to take her to the hospital.
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Post by Vince524 on Jan 23, 2018 12:59:59 GMT -5
For what it's worth NT, I'm truly sorry about your brother. You and I disagree via politics a lot, but I hope you know I'm sincere that I value your input even when it drives me nuts and I really will prayer for your family. If we'd ever met, I'd break bread with you. I'd pass on the joint, just cause that's me.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 23, 2018 13:02:59 GMT -5
apropos the discussion on bias --
Twice in the last 24 hours, I've found myself defending Pence (whom I do not like, by the way) from inaccurate attacks on Twitter. (Heh. A couple people unfollowed me as a result!) I'm all on board with bashing the hell out of Trump and Pence when they have it coming, which IMO is often, but I actually do agree that unfair bashing is unfair, and indeed counter-productive because it gives an excuse to scream "fake news" (and will be used anecdotally to claim that all bashing is fake news).
One instance was the current false meme that Pence said it's a shame that the husbands and fathers of Women's March participants allowed them to go out. Yeah, no. That was actually based on an Onion parody. I kind of get why people fell for it, to some extent -- Pence's ridiculous "I can't dine alone with women not my wife" thing, among other things, leaves him open to people thinking he just arrived here from the middle ages. But the fact is, he didn't say that.
The other instance is the current claim that Pence barred women reporters from covering him at the Western Wall. Alas, that wasn't Pence. Those are Western Wall rules, imposed by the Orthodox Jews in Israel, as I can personally attest. When candidate Obama visited back in 2008, they wouldn't let women reporters on the men's side either. And they wouldn't let me on that side when I visited. Them's the rules, as stupid as I think they are.
Anyway. I submit that what c.e. perceives as out-sized "bias" in me (to note -- we ALL have biases. it's a question of how reasonable, well-founded, and intellectually consistent they are) is in fact solidly founded on Trump's actions and behavior. I don't agree with her that Trump's policies are beneficial -- I think they range from "I can live with it" to "holy fuck, that's so incredibly awful and infuriating and harmful," with far too many leaning towards the latter category. I think the stock market gain we're seeing is in bubble territory, and to the extent it isn't, is based on tax cuts to corporations and rich people that I simply don't agree with and come at the expense of the less-wealthy and of future generations. I also think c.e. is whistling past some basic facts -- e.g., that the stock market rose more in Obama's term (and I don't recall her or Republicans generally giving him credit for it -- or credit to Bill Clinton's economy, for that matter), and that a bunch of Trump's policies have been divisive as hell domestically, are hurting a lot of people, and are alienating our allies and encouraging enemies and ugly elements in our own country. I think her admiration for Gorsuch and a couple of other Trump appointees is blinding her to the downright horrifying incompetence and utter lack of qualifications for many, many others. I think she vastly, vastly underestimates the harm Trump's administration is doing to our government and its institutions, and fundamental values like freedom of the press.
And even more fundamentally -- I disagree, and utterly, with her premise that it's A-OK to have a corrupt, nasty, grifter in office if it furthers policies one likes. If that's what it takes to get those policies in place, I submit it's time to look at why exactly that is, whether the policies are really so damn awesome, and whether it is actually worth it. All candidates have flaws, some of them big ones. I agree with Amadan's assessment of Bill Clinton, for example, and you've all (except the newer people on this site) heard me criticize Hillary. But there are character flaws and actions that deserve condemnation and scrutiny, and then there are flaws and actions that make you utterly unfit to govern. Bill and Hillary, IMO, had plenty of the former (as have most presidents and leaders, frankly, to one degree or another). I submit that Trump falls into the latter category, and by a wide margin.
(A lot of people voted for Roy Moore using the "he'll further policies I like" justification. I don't recall c.e. weighing in on that, but I'd be curious -- is Roy Moore a bridge too far, or not?)
To be clear -- never, ever, ever, ever would I vote for someone like Trump, no matter what he claimed his policies would be. Ends do not justify such means, IMO, not ever. If you think I'm bullshitting here, well, you don't know me as well as you think you do. Never. Because I think it's ultimately more harmful to our country (and indeed to the policies and values I cherish) than having an administration putting in some policies I don't like as much for four years.
It isn't my "bias" blinding me to objectively awesome results, c.e., -- it's my fundamental, deep disagreement with your views on Trump and his administration, on the press, on what constitutes awesome results, and, it appears, about what means are justified to achieve the ends one desires.
This is where I'm coming from -- and where the NeverTrump Republicans I admire are coming from, IMO. We differ on some policies to be sure, sometimes in a bigly way, but that's actually, IMO, a much less fundamental disagreement. They're with me in condemning racism, ugliness, xenophobia, falsehood, instability, and incompetence and in upholding the free press and separation of powers -- and to find that to be ultimately more important than instating partisan policies (that in any case are likely to be swept away when the next party takes office). I'd act exactly as they're acting if the Dems were to nominate someone I found as unstable, erratic, inflamatory, incompetent, etc., etc. as I regard Trump. To be fair, I have no doubt that there's a good-sized gang of zealous liberals who would support such a Democratic candidate in the interest of furthering liberal policies. But I'm not one them. I can hold my nose (usually have to), but only to a particular point, and Trump is just a zillion miles past that point in ton of ways.
All THAT said, c.e., I hope your aunt will be okay, and you too will be in my thoughts.
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Post by franklymydear on Feb 5, 2018 8:13:05 GMT -5
How time flies. It's shutdown week again😀
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Post by Deleted on Feb 5, 2018 9:21:13 GMT -5
It's like infrastructure week or garbage day -- a regularly recurring event.
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Post by franklymydear on Feb 5, 2018 9:54:27 GMT -5
It's like infrastructure week or garbage day -- a regularly recurring event. With Trump on the throne, every day seems to be garbage day one way or another. Out of curiosity, are there any Trump devotees on this forum?
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Post by Deleted on Feb 5, 2018 10:29:31 GMT -5
My semi-joking overview (subject, as always, to the objections and corrections of other members):
We have at least two members who voted for Trump and give him more benefit of the doubt than the rest of us. We have a couple more who dislike Trump and did not vote for him, but think perhaps things aren't quite as bad as some of us think. The majority of us spend our days pulling our hair out by the roots and thinking the giant meteor would have been a better option.
I am at the far extreme of the last group, and spend my days weeping amidst a heap of my own bloody-rooted hair.
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Post by franklymydear on Feb 5, 2018 11:06:34 GMT -5
My semi-joking overview (subject, as always, to the objections and corrections of other members): We have at least two members who voted for Trump and give him more benefit of the doubt than the rest of us. We have a couple more who dislike Trump and did not vote for him, but think perhaps things aren't quite as bad as some of us think. The majority of us spend our days pulling our hair out by the roots and thinking the giant meteor would have been a better option. I am at the far extreme of the last group, and spend my days weeping amidst a heap of my own bloody-rooted hair. Thanks for the general heads up. I hope the Trump supporters get behind their man and back him up ?
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Post by nighttimer on Jan 18, 2019 18:35:33 GMT -5
How time flies. It's shutdown week again😀 It's like infrastructure week or garbage day -- a regularly recurring event.
It's kind of hard to negotiate anything when one side is dug in, entrenched in a no retreat/no surrender strategy where they will only settle for 100 percent of everything they want or nothing at all. And the other side is pretty much saying the same thing.
All government shutdowns are stupid. This one is stupider than most because its dragged on so long and real people are really hurting because they aren't getting paid. Now maybe you can go without a check for a week or two or maybe even three, four or five weeks, but I can't without someone getting another job or going to a food bank or cutting my pills in half or not taking them at all. I still have bills to pay, a house to heat and light, and family members who don't sleep so good when the lights are turned off and so is the heat.
You see it snows where I live and we're about to get more this weekend. The grocery stores were busy today with folks buying their eggs, milk, bacon, beer and plenty of ice melt.
But if you don't have a paycheck and you don't have any more money in the bank and your credit card is reaching its max, and Junior's college tuition is due the same week as the mortgage payment and oh my God what is that terrible grinding sound every time I get in the car and step on the brakes, you are simply up Shit Creek without a paddle.
Because Mitch and Chuck and Nancy and Donald all got heat and light and cold beer and hot food and they don't give a fuck. Why should they? They're still getting their paychecks.
Nice country you got there. Be a shame if something happened to it because your so-called "leaders" fucked it up...
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