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Post by prozyan on Feb 22, 2018 18:59:01 GMT -5
Its the soft target theory...the idea that if a criminal or someone with violence on their mind knows a weapon is in a household (or in the case of Trump's idea, teachers are armed) they will pick an easier target, one that isn't armed.
Mutually assured destruction, deterrence, etc.
I don't buy it one bit.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 22, 2018 19:50:11 GMT -5
Its the soft target theory...the idea that if a criminal or someone with violence on their mind knows a weapon is in a household (or in the case of Trump's idea, teachers are armed) they will pick an easier target, one that isn't armed. Mutually assured destruction, deterrence, etc. I don't buy it one bit. Nor do I, but good to hear it from a bona fide gun expert. FFS. The Parkland kids are getting death threats from alt-right trolls. www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/fla-shooting-survivors-mother-we-have-received-death-threats/ar-BBJsMxSI'm serious, sane Republicans. You guys and your representatives need to be on the rooftop screaming about how you comdemn and disown the attacks, conspiracy theories, and sneering about these kids and the people who are doing it. An entire generation is growing up with the idea that THIS is your party -- that THIS is conservatism -- that you're all about the guns and NRA and ugly conspiracy theories. And before you say it is just a couple trolls, let me remind you -- Trump's SON is retweeting some of these conspiracy theories.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 22, 2018 20:55:15 GMT -5
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Post by mikey on Feb 22, 2018 21:02:53 GMT -5
Or, make more laws, rules, regulations that we can all ignore.
I remember that back in the day, when pot was very illegal, pretty much every middle school and up kid knew where to find it if so desired.
Just saying
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Post by Deleted on Feb 22, 2018 21:27:54 GMT -5
So. Just a coincidence that every country with gun control has a drastically lower rate of gun violence than we do?
Yes, of course we need to enforce the rules and laws. And yes, that hasn't been done enough. But shrugging and saying "eh, no point"? Not acceptable any more.
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Post by prozyan on Feb 22, 2018 22:22:55 GMT -5
Gun control or not, I still hold the problem is more cultural than anything.
Deaths by knife outnumber deaths by rifle by almost 5-1.
Bottom line is Americans seem to love killing each other for some reason.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 22, 2018 22:48:33 GMT -5
Yes, I'm sure there's some cultural element. The whole dick-swinging alpha don't-get-in-my-face-or-else thing, combined with the hero-with-a-gun mythology...we glorify violence, sell assault rifles in Walmart, and then wonder why we have massacres every other week.
Like, in alt-right circles, the worst insult seems to be "cuck" -- from cuckold, i.e., you are someone whose spouse would cheat on them. Being an asshole or a troll or a bastard -- that's teh awesome. It pisses off teh libtards. But being a cuck -- now that's low.
It's a fucked-up, very American way of viewing the world.
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Post by Optimus on Feb 23, 2018 0:10:08 GMT -5
Gun control or not, I still hold the problem is more cultural than anything. Deaths by knife outnumber deaths by rifle by almost 5-1. Bottom line is Americans seem to love killing each other for some reason. Um...no, that's just regurgitating a dishonestly misleading Daily Caller / Breitbart headline. It's misleading because conservative outlets purposely restrict the comparison to "rifles" rather than all firearm deaths, making it seem as if "death by knife" is a more serious problem than it actually is and that "death by gun" is less serious than it actually is. An intellectually honest reading of those statistics would not lead a rational person to the conclusion that knives are somehow worse than guns. It also in no way supports your very loose, nihilistic assertion that the problem is cultural and that no matter what we do (i.e., "gun control or not") we're fucked. www.snopes.com/four-times-more-stabbed-than-rifles-any-kind/
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Post by prozyan on Feb 23, 2018 0:22:45 GMT -5
That is quite an impressive bit of reading into points I didn't make, Opty.
Congratulations.
First, I make no claims of knives being a larger threat than rifles or firearms in general. I simply cited a statistic to support that violence in general is a problem.
Second, my view is not nihilistic. I do think gun control is not the ultimate answer. Gun violence is a symptom of a larger problem within our culture. If holding that opinion makes me nihilistic in your view, so be it. But I don't recall ever stating we are fucked no matter what we do.
Gun ownership has been on the decline for about the past 40 years. The number of firearms is increasing, but it is like wealth...a smaller portion of the population are gathering an increasing proportion of the firearms. Back in the late 70s and early 80s, when a larger percentage of the population owned a firearm, these kinds of mass shootings were near unheard of. So what's changed? Guns or society? Well, gun manufacturing has been basically the same for the kart hundred years so I would say society has changed.
That is cultural and not just OMG GUNZ!
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Post by robeiae on Feb 23, 2018 7:09:25 GMT -5
Gun control or not, I still hold the problem is more cultural than anything. Deaths by knife outnumber deaths by rifle by almost 5-1. Bottom line is Americans seem to love killing each other for some reason. Um...no, that's just regurgitating a dishonestly misleading Daily Caller / Breitbart headline. It's misleading because conservative outlets purposely restrict the comparison to "rifles" rather than all firearm deaths, making it seem as if "death by knife" is a more serious problem than it actually is and that "death by gun" is less serious than it actually is. An intellectually honest reading of those statistics would not lead a rational person to the conclusion that knives are somehow worse than guns. It also in no way supports your very loose, nihilistic assertion that the problem is cultural and that no matter what we do (i.e., "gun control or not") we're fucked. www.snopes.com/four-times-more-stabbed-than-rifles-any-kind/I've got a lot going on right now, and a lot of it has to do with Parkland, which is why I haven't said anything here, yet. But I want to say something right here, just because I am so sick of the bullshit coming from both sides right now (every side, I guess). You're right, Opty. It's a purposeful and dishonest manipulation of reality in order to create a "fact." Because there's no sensible reason to limit the knife comparison to rifles, as opposed to guns in general. A machete (or other large hunting knife) to rifle comparison would make a ton more sense, and obviously so. But then, I could make the argument that the comparison--while faulty--is no less than the "NRA is teh evil" crowd (as opposed to the "guns iz freedom" crowd) deserves, since it does exactly the same sort of shit to get their "facts": switching from "assault rifle" to "assault weapon" to "firearm" to "gun," fucking with definitions of "mass shooting," and doing the same with "school shooting." And people--again, on both sides--are peppering social media with bullshit facts, offering nonstop attempts at clever points and zingers, yet imagining that they're doing something good, that they're a force for change (or no change), and so on. They're not, imo. Just the opposite. Glorification of guns has, I think, gotten way out of hand and is a huge part of the the problem here. But it's not all there is. The rage behind these sorts of tragic acts is ALL OVER SOCIAL MEDIA, again on both sides. And so much of it is functionally anonymous. At the very least, it's not helping at all. At the worst, it may be causal.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 23, 2018 7:44:16 GMT -5
I cannot see that "both sides" have been acting equally badly here, or anything close.
Getting enraged because kids are being slaughtered and yet people are not only whining "but muh assault rifles!" but attacking and casting shade on the Parkland kids...yeah, no. That's not "acting badly." You'll have to show me some pretty awful stuff, and a lot of it, before "both sides"ism will come close to flying with me here. I've seen a shit ton of awful stuff from the gun lobby and the alt right this last few days.
I have never liked the NRA. Now I loathe them. We need them out of our elections. We need our leaders to give more of a shit about the majority of us who want stronger gun laws than they do about cash from the gun lobby.
ETA:
I am not a fan of "bullshit facts", but I can't imagine any "bullshit fact" coming from the anti-gun side of this is anywhere close to being as evil as the horrible "these kids are just actors" bullshit coming out of the pro-gun side
From what I've seen, a fair number of conservatives seem to have walked over to the leftish side on this one -- I see a lot of "I'm a conservative and I own a gun, but..." I am glad to see it. What remains on the "other side" is not doing itself proud on this one, from what I've seen, nor are they doing the GOP any favors.
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Post by michaelw on Feb 23, 2018 7:45:31 GMT -5
Its the soft target theory...the idea that if a criminal or someone with violence on their mind knows a weapon is in a household (or in the case of Trump's idea, teachers are armed) they will pick an easier target, one that isn't armed. Mutually assured destruction, deterrence, etc. I don't buy it one bit. Even if we did buy it, I don't see the point. Next time someone shoots up a concert, I guess we could high five each other and say, "Yeah, arming teachers really worked."
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Post by Rolling Thunder on Feb 23, 2018 8:07:31 GMT -5
So, how much of this online trolling could be chalked up to outside instigation? AKA Russians
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Post by Deleted on Feb 23, 2018 8:12:26 GMT -5
So, how much of this online trolling could be chalked up to outside instigation? AKA Russians Some are certainly trolls and Russians -- absolutely they are amplifying it. But some prominent conservatives are participating and spreading it. The loathsome Dinesh D'Souza, for example. And Trump's son. If it was just anonymous creeps, it wouldn't upset me this way. I think there needs to be the huge cry-out against it. Calling these kids "crisis actors" can't be normalized.
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Post by michaelw on Feb 23, 2018 8:46:08 GMT -5
So, how much of this online trolling could be chalked up to outside instigation? AKA Russians Some are certainly trolls and Russians -- absolutely they are amplifying it. But some prominent conservatives are participating and spreading it. The loathsome Dinesh D'Souza, for example. And Trump's son. If it was just anonymous creeps, it wouldn't upset me this way. I think there needs to be the huge cry-out against it. Calling these kids "crisis actors" can't be normalized. My favorite was Scott Baio (who was an invited speaker at the RNC in 2016). Baio posited on Twitter that Heather Heyer of Charlottesville and Vicki Soto (mother of Victoria Soto) were played by the same actor. Just imagine how mad the people who orchestrated Charlottesville and Sandy Hook must have been when he said that. They thought: "Damn, we could've gotten away with it, but we decided to cut costs by hiring the same actor for both hoaxes." Anyway, you're completely right of course. I think the reality is that some people just can't or won't face up to the fact that politically inconvenient tragedies happen from time to time, so everything has to be a hoax in order to make sense. Sandy Hook was a hoax. Charlottesville was a hoax. Las Vegas was a hoax. Parkland was a hoax. The Fort Hooding shooting was a hoax carried out by a Muslim, so that one is OK I guess. Well, you get the idea.
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