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Post by prozyan on Feb 26, 2018 10:58:37 GMT -5
The NRA is a foul, odious organization that has moved so far to the fringe it bears little resemblance to its original purpose.
It is a shame that in many eyes the NRA = gun owners or the NRA = gun rights proponents. The NRA membership is really small, somewhere in the neighborhood of 5 million.
Their voice and influence is very disproportionate to the numbers they represent and they are going to fuck it up for us good guys.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 26, 2018 11:54:08 GMT -5
The NRA is a foul, odious organization that has moved so far to the fringe it bears little resemblance to its original purpose. It is a shame that in many eyes the NRA = gun owners or the NRA = gun rights proponents. The NRA membership is really small, somewhere in the neighborhood of 5 million. Their voice and influence is very disproportionate to the numbers they represent and they are going to fuck it up for us good guys. Agree. Right now, their voice and the voice of the alt-right whackadoodles is not only ugly, it's also far louder and more prominent than the voices of responsible, reasonable, good guys. They might indeed be in the minority, but you'd never know it. There should be no whistling around the fact that trolling, mocking, smearing, and threatening teenage massacre survivors is horrendous, even if they do happen to be expressing a viewpoint one disagrees with. And to me, that's what the "but both sides" argument equating that stuff with the "boycott NRA"! movement looks like -- whistling past behavior that is simply beyond the pale.
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Post by Rolling Thunder on Feb 26, 2018 12:02:09 GMT -5
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Post by Deleted on Feb 26, 2018 12:24:36 GMT -5
The thing is, the NRA's alleged membership rolls likely includes a lot of non-members and dead people. I saw a couple of articles on that. I'll see if I can dig them up. ETA: Here's one: www.motherjones.com/crime-justice/2013/01/nra-membership-numbers/I'll betcha they still count Amadan as a member. I know a couple of charities I stopped giving to still count me as a member ten years later -- they still send me freaking calendars. ETA: But let's assume their numbers really ARE 5 million. We have, what, 300 million people in this country? And recent polls show that most of them support stronger gun laws. However, since they pump so much money into lobbying and supporting gun-friendly politicians, their influence is waaaaaaaay disproportionate to the numbers that actually support them. Even if you assume that the "silent supporters" equal, say, 6 times their claimed numbers, they are a tiny minority. ETA: And yes, there are worse groups. But: 1) they don't have the influence the NRA does. 2) betcha there's a LOOOOOTTTTT of overlap in members in these groups and the NRA -- like, pretty much 100%. 3) they don't have the remaining veneer of respectability the NRA does, with its (now former) airline and car rental discounts, etc. Those reflect that the NRA used to be a more moderate organization. But the NRA ain't about gun responsibility anymore. What the #boycottNRA move is aimed at is that veneer of mainstream respectability (as well as the NRA's pocketbook and disproportionate influence). Why on earth should an NRA member get a discount on airfare or car rentals? Seriously, if you look at the screaming from the NRA on this, you'd think that we were locking them up and sticking lit matches under their toenails. What is actually happening is a lot of us are saying, "look, either NRA members pay the same damn rates as the rest of us, or you don't get our business." And the companies are taking a look at the numbers and saying, "uh...OK. Maybe we don't need to give that discount." And the NRAtv thing -- well, if the NRA wants its own TV channel, it can stream it itself from its website. I'm not going to support Amazon's helping them to spread their already disproportionate influence. I will miss Prime and Whole Foods, but I have other choices.
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Post by Rolling Thunder on Feb 26, 2018 12:48:38 GMT -5
Ok, let's assume that membership numbers are a true measure of political strength. Google the NAACP and you'll find they claim 300,000 members.
But if they organized a March i wouldn't be surprised to see a million plus people show up.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 26, 2018 13:03:06 GMT -5
Yes, not everyone is willing to pay dues to an organization they quietly support.
But we are still looking at a minority of Americans that support the NRA. A minority of Americans own guns in the first place. Of them, quite a few feel the way Amadan and Prozyan do about the NRA (let alone the despicable actions of some of their individual members).
Recent polls on gun control show that an overwhelming majority of Americans support our having more gun laws. The shootings over the last few months have moved a lot of people from neutral to "yeah, this needs to stop." The kids are moving still more into that camp.
And again, what the #boycottNRA movement is about is stripping the NRA of its mainstream veneer. It's not like the NAACP. It's not like the AARP. At this point, it is a fringe group with way more influence than it should have.
And that, I submit, is because the NRA now represents not the individual "good guy" gun owner, but rather the big-ass gun manufacturers and sellers. They'd LOVE to see every school and church become an armed encampment because while to most of us that is an insane dystopian future, to them it is money in their pocket. And alas, as long as they keep feeding money to politician's campaigns at the rate they do, the majority of us are going to be saddled with what they want, not what we want.
I don't think the "good guys" are well-served by silence here. In the long run (even the short run), there are more of us on the gun control side, and we're wide awake and activated now, and willing to consider stronger measures. I'm happy to support the good guys, but I want to see them step up and help rebuke the very loud, very awful bad guys. Honestly, I think it's in their interest at this point. (And to be fair -- there are a few doing that. But an awful lot are saying or implying that the teens and people criticizing the NRA are as bad as or worse than the people attacking the teens, and yeah, no, that's just not right. There is nothing on this earth lower than attacking, smearing, or mocking a teen massacre survivor, and few things as low.)
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Post by Deleted on Feb 26, 2018 14:39:35 GMT -5
The Lt. Governor of Georgia, folks. Take it away, Casey --
So much for the right to free association. The new conservative thing, apparently, is to withhold corporate welfare from companies who don't give out special discounts that favor small groups of constituents the ruling party likes.
Conservatism -- it does not mean what it used to mean.
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Post by celawson on Feb 26, 2018 16:40:03 GMT -5
I'm getting tired of the hyperbole in some of the above posts. Nothing? Good Lord, yes it's low, but there must be millions of things lower. The fact that these teens survived this massacre doesn't mean they are wise or all-knowing or even know the answer to what most agree is a very complex problem. They're teenagers. We all thought we could solve the world's problems when we were teens. Reality hits when we grow a little older and wiser and know more. They deserve our love and our sympathy and a concerted effort to prevent other tragedies like this, but that doesn't necessarily mean the answer is simply more gun control legislation. (And Don and I and Marco Rubio have already mentioned several reasons why it is not) Also, this whole "NRA is the GOP puppet master" stuff is over the top. www.usatoday.com/story/opinion/2018/02/26/if-nra-owns-republicans-planned-parenthood-owns-democrats-christian-schneider-column/372679002/
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Post by Deleted on Feb 26, 2018 17:27:41 GMT -5
I wonder if you're actually reading the posts.
The problem is not that people are disagreeing with the teenager's viewpoint on gun control. That's their right. The problem is that they are ATTACKING the teenagers. Smearing them. Spreading conspiracy theories about them. Trying to shut them up. The teens are getting death threats from guns rights kooks. They deserve this -- why, because they got a little sassy with Marco Rubio? Because they think AR-15s shouldn't be available in Walmart to anyone who strolls in with a credit card?
Do you think that criticizing the NRA or Marco Rubio, even heatedly, is just as bad as doing that to these teens? Is Marco Rubio getting death threats from a shit-ton of gun control activists? (People yelling at him in a town hall? pfft. He's a politician. That comes with the territory.)
That's not hyperbole. I've given some samples -- not even the real troll samples, which are horrific. You want more? I got 'em. I can dig up some of the really scary stuff on twitter in minutes -- it goes up faster than Twitter can take it down.
And by the way, you should note that a couple of the people in this thread agreeing with the meanie-mcmeanie depiction of the NRA are gun owners and strong proponents of Second Amendment rights.
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Post by nighttimer on Feb 26, 2018 19:20:55 GMT -5
I'm getting tired of the hyperbole in some of the above posts. Nothing? Good Lord, yes it's low, but there must be millions of things lower. Yeah, but we're not discussing those things right now, are we? There's lower things to be sure. Kiddie porn, gang rape, the Bataan Death March, and the lynching of Emmet Till all score pretty low with me personally, but that's not what went down in Parkland, Florida. Just another case of mass murder, so if you really want to pitch a fit about those million of other things lower than a bunch of right-wing cowards, idiots, and hate-filled assholes attacking, smearing and mocking teenagers who watched their classmates get shot down like deer, I have three words of advice for you, celawson: START A THREAD. Marco Rubio is a gutless little turd who got his ass handed to him first by Donald Trump and then Chris Christie. Rubio is America's Leading Invertebrate U.S. Senator. Snails, squids, jellyfish, worms and Little Marco are all part of the same spineless species. Rubio got his ass handed to again at the CNN Town Hall by Cameron Kasky and he richly deserved the humiliation. The kids don't have to have the answers. It's important that they have the questions. Questions like why didn't the adults DO something after Virginia Tech and after Columbine and after Sandy Hook and after Orlando and after Las Vegas and in the case of Little Marco it's because the NRA gave him $3,303,355 reasons to DO nothing. As far as, " We all thought we could solve the world's problems when we were teens. Reality hits when we grow a little older and wiser and know more" that's such a crock. The reality is when we get a little older we get a lot more cautious and afraid to solve the world's problems as adults. We just ignore them and hope those problems keep happening to somebody else and don't personally touch us. If our generation had done its job this generation wouldn't be giving us shit for it. We didn't and those kids you're dismissing as being too young to know what's good for them shouldn't make the same mistake. They may not be old enough to drink, but they do know they're not too young to demand to know why slithering little chickenshits like Rubio care more about the NRA's blood money than their lives. Reality doesn't kick in simply because you have grown older. Trump is 71 years old and he's a damn fool. Growing up doesn't mean you've become wise. It only means you haven't died yet. Maybe because nobody's hunted you down with an AR-15. The Who said it a long time ago. The kids are alright. It's the adults who are fucked. Wow. If False Equivalency were an Olympic event, you'd win a gold medal. You seem to have forgotten something, celawson and that's despite the Republicans attempt to make it illegal, abortion is legal. Does Planned Parenthood enable abortion? Sure. Just as the NRA enables murder, which is decidedly illegal. Then there's fun fact about the NRA: Fake news? Nah. Cold as a corpse fact.The NRA gives virtually nothing to Democrats while lavishing thousands and millions upon individual members of Congress and they are getting their money's worth. Their mealy-mouthed "thoughts and prayers" and all talk no action in reaction to the massacre at Marjory Stoneman Douglas High School is the evidence of it.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 26, 2018 19:54:41 GMT -5
On the abortion thing, I also have to note -- I think the number of Americans who favor abortion remaining legal (not to mention the other women's health services and advocacy provided by Planned Parenthood -- they aren't all about abortion, you know) is a hell of a lot larger than the number who favor AR-15's being available in Walmart. In fact, there's no "I think" about it -- this is certainly the case. And that was my point -- that the NRA's influence on our politicians is massively disproportionate, not that they advocate for the Second Amendment. That and their advocacy is so extreme -- they've taken up arms (heh) against pretty much every reasonable restriction on the sale of guns.
You don't think their influence is disproportionate? Then riddle me this. Earlier in the thread I posted a chart showing that overwhelmingly, Americans favor banning (certainly restricting) military assault weapons for civilian use, banning bump stocks, doing more background checks, etc. It's not even close. And yet, all of that stuff remains legal and there hasn't been a real move, prior to these kids, to even consider some of the popular options the public would mostly support.
Why is that? Here's my answer -- because the politicians don't want to lose that NRA funding. They fear that more than losing votes. Next to that, they fear the worst and ugliest part of their base. As for the rest of their voters, alas, they know Republicans, even those who would privately prefer at least a tad more gun control, will fall in line anyway, so pfft. And so it goes on.
ETA:
I am, by the way, a yuuuuge advocate of campaign finance reform. I really do not want money deciding our elections, certainly not to the extent it does.
derail/
It does interest me that so many pro-lifers seem convinced that all Planned Parenthood does is abortions. In fact, it's a fraction of what they do. Indeed, much of what they do would go towards PREVENTING unwanted pregnancies and thus the need for abortions.
And yanno, we pro-choice people don't get all happy and excited about abortion. We don't slap each others hands and have parties about them. Pretty much all of us regard it as a necessary evil. What we'd really like to see is easy access to birth control and services that would make abortion extremely rare. No one wants to have an abortion as birth control when they could, yanno, take a pill instead.
And yet this strange belief seems to persist that pro-choice women just can't WAIT to pop off to their nearest abortion clinic to get scraped out. No. It's generally a desperate, or at least unpleasant, choice. One, ironically, that will almost inevitably become more common if the right succeeds in closing Planned Parenthood clinics.
ETA:
And then too, there's this:
I know I posted it already, but really stop and think about what this guy is doing. It is against every alleged conservative value. Not to mention, it's freaking stupid, since Delta is a yuuuuge employer in Georgia. For the sake of a special discount for a very small percentage of voters that a private company is under absolutely zero obligation to provide, this guy is willing to toss ethics and all common sense in the toilet, not to mention -- is such a threat out of a politician even fucking LEGAL?! 'Cause I dunno, I'm kinda thinking it isn't. I mean, WTF? So WHY is he doing it?
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Post by Deleted on Feb 26, 2018 20:18:25 GMT -5
I want to be more like Emma Gonzalez when I grow up.
The kids are also using their sudden fame to promote other causes, such as Black Lives Matter, and to give credit to, e.g., young black teens who've long advocated for gun control.
Take a look at Emma's twitter feed. Seriously, the kid has been through an immense trauma and is currently under immense pressure, and yet she's more grown-up than most adults. Grace and strength. She has it in bucketfuls. I don't think you have to agree with her views to see that. She awes and humbles me -- she's quite extraordinary, as are her friends.
If you want a contrast, mosey on over to Trump's twitter feed.
ETA:
One of these days, I'm going to figure out how to type an accent mark on here. Sorry, Emma. I gave you your accent mark in spirit.
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Post by nighttimer on Feb 26, 2018 21:01:48 GMT -5
Oh, will you please, please please STFU and stop talking!Let's take a moment and paint that picture. A fat, flabby, 71-year-old man with no muscle tone who claims bone spurs kept him out of serving his country during the Vietnam War claims he'd run waddle unarmed into a killzone and neutralize an angry and agitated 18-year-old gunman? If Trump really wanted to be helpful, he'd lead the fight to get assault weapons off the street and out of the hands of dipshits like Nickolas Cruz. But he won't because denying killers the weapons they need to commit mass murder is not how you make America great again.
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Post by Optimus on Feb 26, 2018 21:07:31 GMT -5
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Post by Deleted on Feb 26, 2018 21:07:42 GMT -5
I like to picture him zooming towards the gunman in a golf cart, myself. As it is, however, he's afraid of birdies. And when actually faced with the mere idea of a gun... www.npr.org/2016/11/05/500865448/watch-donald-trump-rushed-off-stage-at-reno-rallyDon't get me wrong. That was the smart choice and I wouldn't mock him for it if it weren't for his statement that he'd have rushed the gunman. That's just ridiculous. He's pretty much the LAST man that would sacrifice himself for a bunch of kids he didn't know.
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