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Post by celawson on Jun 8, 2018 11:40:35 GMT -5
So...another shocking celebrity suicide-- Anthony Bourdain. I bought his Kitchen Confidential when it was first published and loved it. And of course it seemed he had a great life, traveling the world to exotic places and having amazing experiences an average person could only dream about. But he was honest since the beginning about his struggles with drugs (including heroin) and alcohol, and he was one of those people that just didn't seem comfortable in his skin. He said one of the reasons he started doing drugs was because he couldn't handle his "staid" conventional homelife as a teen. That says something right there. Contrast him with the horrible news about Charles Krauthammer, MIA over the last 10 months and today revealing he has advanced cancer and probably only weeks to live. Noooo. And he says this: He says the above as a quadriplegic (that accident happened at the height of his prime as a young man) who is now dying of cancer. Wow. Why does cancer have to take a person who dealt so bravely and well for decades with a cervical spinal cord injury? I will really miss his wisdom and intellect. He is a class act, and I read his work regularly and learned much from him. www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/a-note-to-readers/2018/06/08/3512010c-6b24-11e8-bea7-c8eb28bc52b1_story.html?noredirect=on&utm_term=.6107a5be95dfWhat a sad day.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 8, 2018 14:04:41 GMT -5
I agree it is a very sad day. RIP to Bordain and also to Kate Spade, who took her life this week, best wishes to Mr. Krauthammer, and best wishes to all of their families. But I do have to ask: He said one of the reasons he started doing drugs was because he couldn't handle his "staid" conventional homelife as a teen. That says something right there. What does it say, exactly? Contrast them...how? One of them tragically has terminal cancer. The other presumably suffered from severe depression, and struggled with addiction. I find the latter two conditions tragic as well. Both conditions can prove as fatal and as inexorable as cancer. Both men, and Ms. Spade, are a huge loss to us all. In my ideal universe, no one would suffer from any of these things. But they do. In that way, I hate the way the universe works. I am sincerely hoping that your contrasting the two was not meant as an implication that Krauthammer is strong and good because he wanted to keep living, and Bordain is weak and selfish because he couldn't go on. I have seen a few comments on Bordain's death that have me punching walls. This twatwaffle, for example: To note: If Leavitt had called Bordain a steaming, gaping asshole in retort, while Bordain was still living, I'd say fine. But to do it, and in that context, after Bordain has committed suicide...let's just say I reported Leavitt to Twitter and gave him a sizable piece of my mind. ETA: Oh, here are the tweets that led Anthony Bordain to call Leavitt a "steaming, gaping asshole" in the first place. In fact, Bordain was simply being factual.
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Post by celawson on Jun 8, 2018 14:31:29 GMT -5
if someone turns to drugs as a teen because they can’t handle a stable and boring home life, then I think we can safely predict they have inner demons which are going to plague their chances at happiness long term. How many people would give their right hand for a stable and boring childhood life?
Contrast that with someone who was made a fucking quadriplegic at age 22, and still manages to be fulfilled for decades and desperately wants to keep living.
It is a huge contrast , and I don’t think that is a controversial statement. But it does say something amazing about Krauthammer. I highly doubt I could have done the same in his shoes. It likely says something amazing about Bourdain as well, that he could last as long as he did and manage to have such a productive life. It’s very sad both ways.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 8, 2018 14:39:08 GMT -5
"Staid" could mean "repressive as hell" rather than "stable." It could have been "stable," yet unloving and unsupportive. We don't know. We weren't there. A flip remark (which is what that sounds like to me) really doesn't tell us much at all, frankly. It could be that his "demons," whatever they might have been, were a direct result of his childhood or parents. Or it could be that it had nothing to do with them and it's just that depression is one hell of a beast. Either way, I don't think it reflects badly on him that he chose to end his life. It is no more his fault than cancer was Krauthammer's fault.
I will note that one of the worst things one can do with a depressed person is to tell them how lucky they are and/or how selfish they are to be depressed. Unfortunately, people do it all the time. It upsets me to think of all the depressed people out there who will see that Leavitt asshole's tweets and feel that much worse.
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Post by robeiae on Jun 8, 2018 15:11:48 GMT -5
I feel bad for Bourdain's family, to be sure. And I guess he touched a lot of people's lives with his work. And as far as I know, he never stole a freight train. So godpseed, Mr. Bourdain.
That said, both his and Spade's suicides really bug me. Both left behind kids--11 and 13 year old daughters, respectively--and both had a lot of resources, a lot of people around them. These aren't just sad outcomes, they're tragic. Because imo, they're ones that could have been prevented, one way or another.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 8, 2018 15:28:04 GMT -5
Yes, they had people around. But no guarantee those people knew what was in their heads. No guarantee that what they thought was supportive wasn't either unhelpful or else counterproductive.
When people, especially successful people like Bordain, Spade, Robin Williams, etc., reach out to friends and loved ones, what they often get, though well-meaning, is either unhelpful or downright counterproductive. Then, too, perhaps they couldn't help. Perhaps just the right words, said by just the right person at the right time, might have helped, but perhaps not. Medication doesn't always help everyone. Professional help doesn't always help everyone.
You can deeply love your family and know that everyone thinks you've got it all, and yet it all seems unbearably empty. Having people tell you about how you have everything to live for, or that you're hurting your kids, or whatever, makes it worse. You feel guilty as hell, but it also can reinforce the feeling that they'd be better off in the long run without you dragging them down.
If you've never struggled with depression, or helped a loved one struggle through it, this probably makes no sense. But it's true.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 8, 2018 19:49:54 GMT -5
I'm fond of Pope Francis, but Rev. Rob Lee is my new favorite religious leader. He tweeted this in response to twat-waffle's David Leavitt's tweet saying that "If you’re religious, then you believe there’s a special place in hell or purgatory for people like Anthony Bourdain who take their own lives":
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Post by Optimus on Jun 9, 2018 1:23:07 GMT -5
That said, both his and Spade's suicides really bug me. Both left behind kids--11 and 13 year old daughters, respectively--and both had a lot of resources, a lot of people around them. These aren't just sad outcomes, they're tragic. Because imo, they're ones that could have been prevented, one way or another. Could they have been, though? There's a lot of deep misunderstanding in the public about severe depressive disorders (for instance, there are several types). A person in the throes of a clinical episode and suffering from suicidal ideation literally cannot think clearly. Generally, they're anhedonic, meaning that they lack the capacity to feel pleasure, they're overcome with unshakeable feelings of dread and hopelessness, and they suffer psychomotor retardation where both their movements and their thoughts become slower and more difficult because they require much more effort (severely depressed people will sometimes even talk slower because even speech becomes a cognitively and physically demanding activity). In the most severe cases, it can trigger what's sometimes called " psychotic depression." In that type of depressed (emotionally and cognitively) state, they can quite easily suffer from cognitive distortions and self-referential catastrophizing, where they are in excruciatingly immense psychic pain and experience delusions, such as becoming convinced that them living is harming their family and loved ones, and that if they continue to live it will only make things worse for themselves and the ones they love. Sometimes their delusions convince them that their loved ones want them to kill themselves. That's what many people don't understand. For those types of severe cases of major depressive disorder, the person's brain is literally functioning differently, affecting they way they think, perceive the world, process information, and make judgements. They have as much control over these cognitive distortions as a schizophrenic patient does their hallucinations and delusions. In these types of situations, it sometimes doesn't matter how much "love and support" they have around them, or how much access they have to mental health care. Sometimes all the "love and support" and access to doctors/therapists one can get doesn't fix things, just like a cancer patient can undergo chemotherapy and it doesn't work. Researchers and doctors hardly have any clue about the true etiology of major depressive disorders and haven't found many (or any) truly effective treatments. People can get treatment, or have access to treatment, and still die. Cancer and depression have that in common. I've dealt with deep depression before and can absolutely empathize with Bourdain and Spade in that respect. But, I doubt mine was anywhere close to the depths that they seem to have experienced and it wasn't the "unexplainable" kind that is likely biological in origin (I'd be willing to bet theirs was). That's another distinction; some severe depression has identifiable social/environmental causes. That's the kind that generally responds better to treatment. The seemingly unexplainable, likely genetic/biological-in-origin kind is often highly resistant to treatment. Another misconception people have is that a person with a depressive disorder (especially "clinical depression") is depressed all the time. That's not true. Even a person with persistent major depressive disorder can have spells where they're feeling fine. Sometimes those non-depressed spells can last weeks, months, even a year or two. Then, seemingly out of nowhere, they'll get hit with a major depressive episode, much like how some seizures can hit with little to no warning. If that happens at a time when they are not around their support system (family and/or therapy), it can lead to some devastating consequences, like suicide. Back to the cancer analogy, it's kind of like getting out of chemo and it's looking like you're in remission and then 6 months later your cancer is suddenly back, more aggressive than ever, and you're dead in just a few weeks (that actually happened to a friend of mine). So, I strongly reject the notion that things like this are preventable (just as much as I and all reasonable people reject the accusation that suicide is somehow "selfish"). I believe I can understand why some people feel that way but, objectively, we have no way of knowing whether these types of deaths are/were preventable because there's really no way of ever having evidence to demonstrate it one way or the other. Also, we know enough about major depression to know that it's a legitimate illness that can significantly, negatively alter the way a person's brain works and they way that person thinks and perceives the world. Additionally, given all we do know about major depressive disorders, we know enough that I don't feel it's a stretch to say that it's probably slightly less likely that they are/were preventable, and slightly more likely that they aren't/weren't. All we can do in situations like these is mourn the deaths, celebrate the lives, and keep funding research to find better treatments and, hopefully one day, a cure.
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Post by celawson on Jun 9, 2018 11:29:31 GMT -5
Thanks for that post, Optimus (where did lil' Opty go?). I'm going to post a link to a clip of a Bourdain episode that seems to illustrate what Optimus and Cass are saying. It's just so terribly sad to watch, (and sort of infuriating that the therapist is smiling throughout). He knows when he talks about the hamburger that it's irrational for a hamburger to send you into a spiral of depression. There's such a sense of emptiness and loneliness. Poor guy. www.tmz.com/2018/06/08/anthony-bourdain-dead-talked-depression-parts-unknown/
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Post by Deleted on Jun 9, 2018 12:21:28 GMT -5
One of the things about depression is how frequently it seems to correlate with exceptionally funny, intelligent, and creative people. Many have a false image of people with depression being sad sacks who just sit slumped in a corner all the time and never laugh, and that people who are hilarious and successful can't possibly seriously suffer from it. (You'd think Robin Williams alone would be enough to prove that wrong, but no.)
Another huge misconception is that people with depression are simply weaker than others, and just need to learn to cope with their problems like everyone else. The fact is, with clinical depression you don't need to have some horrible event to trigger the depression.
Because of the misconceptions, there's a huge stigma still attaching to depression, and it is so harmful. It's hard enough for people with depression to reach out for help without that stigma (it's like being at the bottom of a deep well where you can't see the light or hear voices from the top) , and unfortunately, when they do reach out, all too often they get people telling them to cheer up, be strong, their problems aren't so bad, lots of people are worse off, they brought it on themselves and they can fix it, why are they bringing everyone down, they owe it to their families, what they need is Jesus or a hobby or whatever, etc., etc.
Besides looking for effective treatments, we need to eliminate the stigma and increase awareness about depression. That will make it a touch easier for people to seek treatment, and perhaps reduce the number of well-meaning people who nonetheless hurt more than help.
One of the many things I deeply respect about one of my favorite lawyers, Popehat, is that he's open about his struggles with depression, despite the trolls who mock him for it. A funnier, smarter guy would be hard to find. People like him being courageous enough to be upfront with their struggles is a huge help in combating the stigma.
Anyway. Sorry for the speechifying. It's been quite upsetting to me to see some of the uglier reactions to this week's suicides.
It's also sad how many fantastic people this last couple of years has taken from us (whether from depression, cancer, overdose, or whatever).
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Post by prozyan on Jun 10, 2018 0:28:03 GMT -5
Just to set the record straight, Robin Williams most likely did not commit suicide due to depression.
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Post by Optimus on Jun 10, 2018 3:13:30 GMT -5
Yes, he was suffering from Lewy Body Dementia, IIRC.
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Post by celawson on Jun 10, 2018 11:41:16 GMT -5
Just a few random comments. Soome might be more controversial than others. I hope we can discuss rationally and calmly. ---Interestingly, I saw a clip yesterday of an interview with Bourdain where he said it was a "dark genie" inside of him which brought him to drugs and alcohol when he was younger, and he was "loathe to call it a disease". I didn't save it at the time, and there are so many clips but I will try to find it and post a link, but that correlates quite well with my demon comment above. People have very different coping abilities with life's challenges, for all sorts of reasons. ---TMZ reported that pictures were posted online some days ago with Bourdain's girlfriend Asia Argento holding hands with and hugging a French reporter. These were apparently taken down after Bourdain's death. CNN also reported that Bourdain's suicide seemed to be "impulsive". ---I also don't quite fully agree with the anger some are showing to people who don't follow the "PC way" to deal with depressed people. Yes, there are assholes like Leavitt. And he is an asshole of the highest order. But there are also loving and well-meaning people who point out things to depressed or suicidal people like (and I will just toss out a couple of examples off the top of my head) "you have your childrent to live for" or "it will get better with treatment" or "you have a lot to live for". These are rational statements. Not only are they rational statements, but they are a strategy that the vast majority of folks can use with good effect to get us through tough times or periods of anxiety or sadness. I've done it myself for myself many times. They are even, in many instances, part of the sort of approach that therapists counsel anxious and depressed people to use in CBT (cognitive behavioral therapy). positivepsychologyprogram.com/cbt-cognitive-behavioral-therapy-techniques-worksheets/To go even a step further, I'm wondering if, for example, this whole idea of offering only sympathy and compassion without anger or judgement - and this seems to be a movement currently - could be facilitating some suicidal folks to take the next unalterable step. Although I have compassion for depressed people, I do also see Robo's point above about the two recent suicides of celebs with young children. That "bugged" Rob. As a parent, I am bugged, too. And I'm not going to feel guilty for that. Nor do I think I should. Social stigma is a deterrent, is it not? The less stigma on suicide, the more acceptable an alternative it becomes. Yes, I can see how the stigma against mental illness in general is bad and can contribute to people hesitating to seek help, but how can we not have a stigma against suicide itself? Interestingly, Catholicism teaches that suicide is a mortal sin. A 2016 study published in JAMA showed a lower suicide rate for women attending religious services at least once per week, and an even lower rate for Catholics vs Protestants. jamanetwork.com/journals/jamapsychiatry/fullarticle/2529152
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Post by Deleted on Jun 10, 2018 11:58:33 GMT -5
I'm out of this conversation.
ETA:
I do suggest, rationally and calmly, that before you put your thoughts into action with an actual clinically depressed or suicidal person, you discuss it with an expert first. Better yet, let the expert deal with it.
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Post by Christine on Jun 10, 2018 19:54:24 GMT -5
.... "you have your children to live for" or "it will get better with treatment" or "you have a lot to live for". These are rational statements. Not only are they rational statements, but they are a strategy that the vast majority of folks can use with good effect to get us through tough times or periods of anxiety or sadness. I've done it myself for myself many times. They are even, in many instances, part of the sort of approach that therapists counsel anxious and depressed people to use in CBT (cognitive behavioral therapy). positivepsychologyprogram.com/cbt-cognitive-behavioral-therapy-techniques-worksheets/To go even a step further, I'm wondering if, for example, this whole idea of offering only sympathy and compassion without anger or judgement - and this seems to be a movement currently - could be facilitating some suicidal folks to take the next unalterable step. Although I have compassion for depressed people, I do also see Robo's point above about the two recent suicides of celebs with young children. That "bugged" Rob. As a parent, I am bugged, too. And I'm not going to feel guilty for that. Nor do I think I should. When a person who is a parent is depressed, it is entirely possible that they believe they are shitty parents who have failed their children, that their children are better off without them. Part of depression is that the depressed person is acutely aware of what they're supposed to be doing, as a parent or otherwise. Depression isn't feeling blue or having a crap week and just needing a pep talk. "Rational statements" don't work. If they did, clinical depression wouldn't exist. Well-meaning statements about how much a depressed person's kid(s) need them can actually make it worse, because it's like adding more weight to what the person already knows they should be doing, when they can't.
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