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Post by Amadan on Jun 11, 2018 11:50:19 GMT -5
---I also don't quite fully agree with the anger some are showing to people who don't follow the "PC way" to deal with depressed people. Yes, there are assholes like Leavitt. And he is an asshole of the highest order. But there are also loving and well-meaning people who point out things to depressed or suicidal people like (and I will just toss out a couple of examples off the top of my head) "you have your childrent to live for" or "it will get better with treatment" or "you have a lot to live for". These are rational statements. Not only are they rational statements, but they are a strategy that the vast majority of folks can use with good effect to get us through tough times or periods of anxiety or sadness. I've done it myself for myself many times. They are even, in many instances, part of the sort of approach that therapists counsel anxious and depressed people to use in CBT (cognitive behavioral therapy). positivepsychologyprogram.com/cbt-cognitive-behavioral-therapy-techniques-worksheets/I had a really angry response written out, because I know someone who is suicidally depressed. But I'll just drop this here: you are flat-out wrong that there is some "movement" to make suicide more acceptable. (I am not talking about euthanasia, so if you want to Church Lady about that, fuck off to another thread about it.) Do you have any evidence at all that sympathy and compassion is encouraging people to commit suicide, and that being judgmental and stigmatizing them would work as a deterrent? If not, then go CBT yourself and stop talking about things that clearly fall outside your medical expertise. |
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Post by Amadan on Jun 11, 2018 11:53:15 GMT -5
When a person who is a parent is depressed, it is entirely possible that they believe they are shitty parents who have failed their children, that their children are better off without them. Part of depression is that the depressed person is acutely aware of what they're supposed to be doing, as a parent or otherwise. Depression isn't feeling blue or having a crap week and just needing a pep talk. "Rational statements" don't work. If they did, clinical depression wouldn't exist. Well-meaning statements about how much a depressed person's kid(s) need them can actually make it worse, because it's like adding more weight to what the person already knows they should be doing, when they can't. The person I am talking about needs constant reassurance about very obvious things. Like "Dying would be bad" and "I should eat." This is not a stupid person. This person is perfectly well aware that these thoughts are not rational. You cannot rationally argue someone out of depression. |
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Post by celawson on Jun 11, 2018 14:30:50 GMT -5
Looking back over my post, I can see that I didn't explain a couple of things in the detail I should have. Sorry for that. I did not mean we SHOULD always say those things to a depressed person. What I meant was that many loving and well-meaning people who offer these sorts of statements to their friends or family members who are depressed are not doing it out of stupidity or assholeness. And they shouldn't be lumped in with people like that jerk on Twitter that Cass pointed out. Irrational and negative thinking patterns contribute to depression. CBT is a scientifically sound method to help counter that. A psychologist I was reading yesterday stated that the slogan "Suicide is a permanent solution to a temporary problem" in fact did help some of her teenage patients who were comtemplating suicide. The fact is, there are so many individual complexities involved in depression and suicide, and there are different sorts of suicidalities, so it's difficult for blanket rules to apply. Sometimes a phrase like that might help, sometimes it might not. In your case, Amadan, it seems like these sorts of reminders are helpful to your friend. (I'm sorry you and your friend are going through this.) The "movement" I'm talking about is a phenomenon I've seen (I'm not going to go into detail here, but truthfully it's been very close to me in real life, not just something I've read about), where the term "mental illness" is wholly embraced in multiple areas online, and the diagnoses of anxiety disorder and depression are embraced as well, whether or not they have been formally diagnosed by a physician or psychologist. It romanticizes the ideas of depression and suicide. And when the normal ups and downs of life are conflated with true mental illness like clinical depression, and the positive feedback perpetuates the cycle, it is harmful to society. Having some level of judgement is important, IMO. To extend that, when people like Kate Spade and Anthony Bourdain take their own lives, leaving young children and many who deeply care about them and love them, and all society says is "oh those poor suffering souls" it does, IMO, make the act seem more acceptable. Here is an article in The Atlantic that illustrates what I'm saying about the "movement" stuff: www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2013/10/social-media-is-redefining-depression/280818/The reason I'm bringing these things up is because the suicide rate is climbing significantly, even amidst the efforts to destigmatize mental illness, etc. And honestly, you ask me if I have evidence if being judgemental would work as a deterrent? No I do not. But I brought up the religion issue because there IS a correlation between increased religious participation and lower suicide attempts in the U.S. There are multiple studies which have shown this. In particular, as I mentioned about, Catholicism seems to have a greater protective effect. (I also want to make clear that by stigmatizing suicide, I didn't mean everyone who commits suicide is going to have eternal damnation. Even the Catholic Church doesn't teach that, because mental illness affects culpability. The following paper comes to the conclusion about suicide and religion that religion has a protective effect: ajp.psychiatryonline.org/doi/10.1176/appi.ajp.161.12.2303Religious Affiliation and Suicide Attempt "Moral objections about suicide" may be a protective factor. Moral objections are a judgement and a stigma. I'm not trying to be contrary or inciteful, I'm just trying to discuss something very complex and something we as a society are not doing a very good job about. Thank you for not being as angry as you were initially going to be. |
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Post by Amadan on Jun 11, 2018 14:47:22 GMT -5
Okay, yes, I agree that a lot of people like to diagnose themselves with anxiety, depression, OCD, autism, BPD, fibromyalgia, and nonbinaryunicornsexuality.
I fail to see a connection between that and increased acceptability of suicide.
I'm aware of the correlation between religious participation and lower suicide rates (I suspect it's really more about being socially connected than religion per se, but I would, being a godless atheist who nonetheless sees value in religious communities if they fulfill a social need). I'm also aware of the correlation between physical exercise and lower rates of depression. That doesn't mean telling a clinically depressed person to exercise is necessarily going to work any better than telling them to go to church. Yes, both those things might be good for them, or they might not, and while I am all for suggesting things someone might do (believe me, I have been banging my head against a fucking wall trying to get this person to do things that would very obviously be good for them!) I still find the suggestion that we should stigmatize mental illness and make them feel ashamed for having suicidal thoughts abhorrent. Believe me, they feel plenty of shame already; you trying to make them feel worse is not going to disincentivize them if they are already feeling suicidal.
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Post by Christine on Jun 12, 2018 19:23:41 GMT -5
When a person who is a parent is depressed, it is entirely possible that they believe they are shitty parents who have failed their children, that their children are better off without them. Part of depression is that the depressed person is acutely aware of what they're supposed to be doing, as a parent or otherwise. Depression isn't feeling blue or having a crap week and just needing a pep talk. "Rational statements" don't work. If they did, clinical depression wouldn't exist. Well-meaning statements about how much a depressed person's kid(s) need them can actually make it worse, because it's like adding more weight to what the person already knows they should be doing, when they can't. The person I am talking about needs constant reassurance about very obvious things. Like "Dying would be bad" and "I should eat." This is not a stupid person. This person is perfectly well aware that these thoughts are not rational. You cannot rationally argue someone out of depression. What you're doing seems helpful -- your friend thinks dying seems like a good idea; you state that it isn't. You friend doesn't want to eat, you state that eating is important. My particular argument here was in regard to the whole idea of "how could they do this to their kids??" And/or thinking it's helpful to tell a depressed parent "your kids need you." That could be an appropriate response to them saying "My kids don't need me." But otherwise, it's essentially a guilt trip and it's very likely something that parent already knows, even part-and-parcel to the depression itself. That person might need to hear that they are a good parent, or they might need to not think about their kids at all while they're getting help. |
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Post by Vince524 on Jun 13, 2018 12:08:25 GMT -5
I'm going to wade in here, and I'll beg forgiveness in advance because this is a little personal to me. As to the point of what a well meaning person might say, just because they are well meaning doesn't mean that they're saying the right thing. Many people just don't get depression, or anxiety or trauma. Logic doesn't usually factor in. As an FYI, I was recently diagnosed with both by a psychologist. Mild, but both depression and anxiety. Shocked the shit out of me that he would actually consider me that, but I also saw a therapist and without knowing what the Dr. had said, came to the same conclusion. The logical part of my brain will often know I've done nothing wrong, yet I'll still be in a panic that I'm about to get fired, or my wife is going to throw me out. I had a conversation with someone recently about this. She said, imagine that moment when you walk out into traffic and you're nearly hit by a huge truck. Your brain is flooded with a chemical (Adrenaline, Cortisol, Norepinephrine)that initiates the fight or flight reaction. Some people have brains flooded that way all the time. Sometimes it's just biological. Other times, it's not. You go through abuse, or trauma or both. You brain gets used to that. So even when you know there's nothing to fear, you're afraid. People who commit suicide aren't being selfish or weak. They suffer from an illness. It's not that they're not thinking of their kids. Here's an article I read recently that moved me. www.cnn.com/2018/06/13/opinions/listen-to-the-other-victims-of-suicide-too-mandel/index.htmlNobody likes going to that dark place, or chooses to feel like death is the best option. I truly believe it's not, but I also know how difficult to understand that when you're standing on the edge, because I've been there. My life is a very different today than it was back when I had my plan in place, but even know when stress is very high, the thoughts pop in there. I push them out. I don't believe I'd ever got there again. But I can't control that feeling, that moment. I'm a grown fucking man, yet I'm still terrorized by childhood memories. This stuff has all happened, these suicides and the discussion of suicide (It's up in 49 out of 50 states www.cnn.com/2018/06/07/health/suicide-report-cdc/index.html) at a very odd time for me. I wrote something on my blog recently. I may end up deleting it. Not sure how I feel, but I wrote it this past weekend after what was a pretty bad few days. vincentmorroneauthor.blogspot.com/2018/06/my-journey-as-i-bury-both-my-father-and.html?m=1 |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 15, 2018 10:59:29 GMT -5
Vince, I just wanted to say publicly (as I've said privately already) that this post and your blog post were very courageous, and I think they could very helpful to others who struggle with depression, anxiety, and suicidal thoughts, or have loved ones who do.
You're a good man. Never forget it.
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Post by Vince524 on Jun 15, 2018 11:33:49 GMT -5
Thank you, but there are a lot of people out there who have far worse struggles and they really deserve that label of courageous far more than I do.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 15, 2018 11:38:34 GMT -5
You deserve it, too. And you're right here.  ETA: And I also want to give a shout-out to Amadan for his support of his severely clinically depressed friend. I know how difficult--and how important--such support can be. |
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Post by Vince524 on Jun 15, 2018 11:43:39 GMT -5
The person I am talking about needs constant reassurance about very obvious things. Like "Dying would be bad" and "I should eat." This is not a stupid person. This person is perfectly well aware that these thoughts are not rational. You cannot rationally argue someone out of depression. What you're doing seems helpful -- your friend thinks dying seems like a good idea; you state that it isn't. You friend doesn't want to eat, you state that eating is important. My particular argument here was in regard to the whole idea of "how could they do this to their kids??" And/or thinking it's helpful to tell a depressed parent "your kids need you." That could be an appropriate response to them saying "My kids don't need me." But otherwise, it's essentially a guilt trip and it's very likely something that parent already knows, even part-and-parcel to the depression itself. That person might need to hear that they are a good parent, or they might need to not think about their kids at all while they're getting help. Yeah, it's kind of like hearing the words I love you. You should know you're loved by family, but you need to hear it. One of the things about this stuff is that logically, you can know something. You can understand that a fear of something is irrational, or that thinking you are a horrible person is wrong, but that doesn't stop you from feeling that way. Your brain gets wired to believe certain things. My foster daughter was talking to me recently about how she feels. She's dating a very nice guy who is very patient, but he came from a nice family and doesn't get the trauma she came from, sleeping with a knife under her pillow and such. So there are times he's like, "But you know you can trust me." It's not that she doesn't understand that she can, it's that she's wired to not trust anyone. It's a struggle. |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 15, 2018 12:15:58 GMT -5
It is indeed a struggle. And one that requires tremendous compassion, patience, and understanding.
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Post by Vince524 on Jun 15, 2018 13:33:29 GMT -5
It is indeed a struggle. And one that requires tremendous compassion, patience, and understanding. Yeah and it really needs all 3. The boyfriend has the compassion, and the patience, it's the understanding he has trouble with. He has a hard time getting why she reacts to things the way she does. It's the trauma talking. For someone who has been through as much as she has, she's doing pretty damn good. Honor student, deans list in a top 50 school studying engineering. No drugs or alcohol. And BF tries to understand, he just doesn't have that frame of reference and FD didn't know how to explain it to him. |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 15, 2018 13:42:04 GMT -5
It's sounds like he's at least trying, which is in itself important (and praise-worthy in a guy that young). It sounds like there is a lot of genuine attachment between them. I hope they can work together, he towards understanding and she towards trust. But yes, it's not easy on either side
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Post by Vince524 on Jun 15, 2018 13:47:49 GMT -5
They seem to be doing better these last few weeks. I told her she needed to use different language to explain it. For someone like her, reliability and predictability are very important. He really is trying to adjust.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 15, 2018 13:59:47 GMT -5
She's lucky to have you. (And from the sound of it, to have him, too.) |
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