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Post by robeiae on Jun 22, 2018 6:28:46 GMT -5
Sorry, Rob, I was so busy thanking Mikey on the last page I completely missed your post. Oh, yes, I agree. This was perfectly normal first lady attire, particularly for an event like this. Amazing the media made such a big deal. How could Melania ever have anticipated that would happen ? Apparently, you've still missed it. "Foolish choice," that's what I said about the jacket. I think it's completely fair to point that out. She should have realized--the people around her should have realized--the jacket wasn't a smart choice, even though she again was just wearing it from car to plane and not to an actual event.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 22, 2018 8:01:21 GMT -5
I think you're missing mine . It was that, under the circumstances, your "tsk tsk, there goes the media and the hysterical conspiracy theorists when it's a nothingburger" is misplaced.
It was at best -- and this is the best you can possibly make of it -- not just a foolish, but a completely bizarre, utterly clueless choice, and there is absolutely nothing surprising about the fact so many of us are aghast at it. This isn't a tan suit or a sleeveless dress. This is a garment with "I really don't care" scrawled prominently across the back -- worn to an event where the whole point of her going is to show she DOES care, since the entire country and world has been screaming for a week about how cruel this policy is and how the Trumps just don't care.
And again, this is a tacky (I certainly wouldn't wear it, to anything) $39 coat worn by an immensely image-conscious former model (a middle-aged one, no longer a feckless teenager) with a vast wardrobe. This is not a woman who grabs any old thing in her wardrobe and runs out the door. She knows the whole world is watching and taking photos. And she chose that coat. It seems to be a new coat, one she has not worn before (certainly not been photographed in), and she chose this occasion -- THIS OCCASION -- to debut it instead of the no doubt hundreds of other options in her closet. What, she couldn't find a sweater?
Oh, and she has a whole staff to advise her, FFS.
It's mind-boggling, so much so it is hard to believe it was not deliberately done to make a statement.
And then you are scoffing at how ridiculous we are to be aghast and wonder just what the fuck she was thinking in choosing to do this.
If this were a sleeveless dress, I'd agree with you people were making a big deal of nothing. It's not.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 22, 2018 8:44:01 GMT -5
Look, if she wore one of her $50,000 couture sundresses and spike heels for the visit, I'd roll my eyes and say "really, jeans and a t-shirt would be such better optics." But I'd also say "clueless, but that's how the woman dresses. Someone on her staff should have suggested an outfit that didn't drip quite so obviously with privilege, but come on, it's not that big a deal."
But, if your trip is supposed to show you care, there's no worse way to show it than a garment that literally says you don't. And ironically, in this case, the very cheapness of the garment works against her, since she is not a woman who wears cheap, off-the-rack stuff.
ETA:
Come on, I didn't have it in for Melania. I wasn't looking for reasons to hate on her. I've stuck up for her consistently time and again on this board, saying I thought she was trying (even if she was out of her depth and badly in need of guidance). I had at least one and I think more yuuuuuge fights with other members because I persisted in sticking up for her and having a degree of sympathy for her.
I'd do it again if she'd worn the couture sundress.
But it's hard for me to believe, in light of all the factors I name above, that this is just "foolishness." And if she really is just that feckless and clueless, well, it's at a level I can't comprehend, and they should stop trotting her out as a rep.
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Post by robeiae on Jun 22, 2018 9:38:11 GMT -5
I think you're missing mine . It was that, under the circumstances, your "tsk tsk, there goes the media and the hysterical conspiracy theorists when it's a nothingburger" is misplaced. I'm not sure why you're intent on misrepresenting me. I said it was a foolish choice and your response to that was to imply that I was saying it was "perfectly normal first lady attire." Then in my follow-up post, I noted that criticizing such a foolish choice was completely fair. Nowhere did I say it was a nothing burger or suggest the media shouldn't be noting the incident. Which I guess is part of the problem in social media world--in mine, at any rate--insofar as one has to be all in, 100%, with the outrage train. Anything less is not enough. And let's also deal with actual facts here. If you want to say it was "completely bizarre," I can't say you're wrong. I certainly find it kinda odd (and still foolish, regardless). BUT...she didn't wear it to the event in question. Where have you been for the past couple years (decades, really)? The Trump family has been surrounded by staff forever, yet they still manage to behave foolishly, stupidly, or worse all the time. I think it beggars the intellect to suppose it was done deliberately. If she had walked in to the detention center wearing the jacket, in full display of cameras and TV crews, I might be with you. But that's not what happened. You seriously believe Melania thought to herself "hmmm, I'll wear this 'I don't care' jacket when I board the plane because I know a few people will get some shots of it, then it will hit the internet and become a clear shout-out to my fellow xenophobes (says the immigrant)"? Is she an evil genius now? Since I'm not doing that, you should feel a little better. My issue is with people imagining this was a dog whistle, a secret sign as it were, not just a foolish choice by a woman who--I think we once all agreed--never really wanted to be in this position to begin with and--like her husband--doesn't really fully understand how to play the role she's been stuck with (of course, Donald wanted the role he has and relishes his lack of ability, but First Lady isn't really an office, elected or otherwise).
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Post by Deleted on Jun 22, 2018 10:09:17 GMT -5
Heh, there's nothing secret -- there was an outright message literally printed on her jacket.
Given the Trump family, given how the family separation has unfolded and the appallingly callous remarks about it from Trump and his surrogates ("womp womp"?), I don't think it's crazy to question whether we shouldn't be taking those words literally. Maybe she was just being clueless. But under the circumstances, I don't think it's paranoid to take the words literally. Perhaps not so much from her personally -- I don't know what's in her pretty head -- but from the administration: "FLOTUS is doing this photo op for the Fake Media, but don't worry -- zero tolerance is still our priority, not these kids, don't think we're going to back down."
By the way, Melania herself hasn't bothered to speak up and say "sorry, really bad coat choice, but I totally do care." I sure would speak up, if it were me under these circumstances. If she didn't realize it was clueless and callous-looking before, she surely does now.
And the fact is, all over the internet, alt-right trolls are cheering.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 22, 2018 11:10:55 GMT -5
Another thing -- she was not born in a gold penthouse. She was born a middle-class Slovenian girl. She's an immigrant herself. I just cannot comprehend that she was this oblivious.
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Post by robeiae on Jun 22, 2018 12:02:38 GMT -5
Well again, you still seem to be operating from the mistaken perspective that she wore this jacket to the children's detention center (and you're not alone there, judging from a lot of the stuff I'm seeing). She didn't. She wore it on the tarmac at Andrews. As I said, if she had been wearing it to the actual center, for the actual event as it were, I'd be inclined to see a purpose been the choice of the jacket. But since that's not what happened, I'm sticking with it being a foolish/bad/idiotic choice.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 22, 2018 12:18:38 GMT -5
No, I understand she took the jacket off at the detention center.
But she wore it en route there and back, when she KNEW she'd be photographed and scrutinized.
I've read it was 80+ degrees and humid; wearing a jacket at all, and over a long-sleeved outfit, is pretty unfathomable.
Put it all together, and it's so over-the-top batshit, I just cannot fathom that not only she, but her entire staff and everyone in the White House, were that clueless.
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Post by Amadan on Jun 22, 2018 13:01:42 GMT -5
Well again, you still seem to be operating from the mistaken perspective that she wore this jacket to the children's detention center (and you're not alone there, judging from a lot of the stuff I'm seeing). She didn't. She wore it on the tarmac at Andrews. As I said, if she had been wearing it to the actual center, for the actual event as it were, I'd be inclined to see a purpose been the choice of the jacket. But since that's not what happened, I'm sticking with it being a foolish/bad/idiotic choice. Does it really make that much difference whether she wore it to the detention center itself? I guess that would be slightly more egregious, but wearing it to and from the center is still... a thing. I'm still in the "Melania is an oblivious prop" camp, but I also think someone somewhere (possibly including Melania herself) made a conscious decision that "I don't care do u" was something they wanted to be seen on this trip. I doubt that Melania intended it to refer to the children she was visiting. I doubt that Melania or anyone else was sending "dog whistles to the alt-right." I find Trump's claim (that she was giving the finger to the "Fake News Media") almost more believable. But even then, deciding "Hey, I think I'll troll the media on a PR trip to try to undo some of the damage my husband has done" requires a severe level of idgaf about the trip itself. So no, it's probably not a grand conspiracy to signal to the base that Trump still intends to fuck over illegal immigrants. But I think it's something more than just Melania thinking "This jacket looks cute lol" and everyone else on her team thinking "omg that jacket lol." As bad as that would be in itself.
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Post by robeiae on Jun 22, 2018 13:04:56 GMT -5
No, she wore it from the car to the plane at Andrews. When she got off the plane in Texas, she wasn't wearing it. So when she knew she'd be under heavy scrutiny, she wasn't wearing it.
Still, it wasn't a smart move (obviously, given what's going on now). She should realize--and her staff should help her here--that even that short walk from car to plane matters.
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Post by robeiae on Jun 22, 2018 13:10:56 GMT -5
Does it really make that much difference whether she wore it to the detention center itself? I guess that would be slightly more egregious, but wearing it to and from the center is still... a thing. I'm still in the "Melania is an oblivious prop" camp, but I also think someone somewhere (possibly including Melania herself) made a conscious decision that "I don't care do u" was something they wanted to be seen on this trip. I doubt that Melania intended it to refer to the children she was visiting. I doubt that Melania or anyone else was sending "dog whistles to the alt-right." I find Trump's claim (that she was giving the finger to the "Fake News Media") almost more believable. But even then, deciding "Hey, I think I'll troll the media on a PR trip to try to undo some of the damage my husband has done" requires a severe level of idgaf about the trip itself. So no, it's probably not a grand conspiracy to signal to the base that Trump still intends to fuck over illegal immigrants. But I think it's something more than just Melania thinking "This jacket looks cute lol" and everyone else on her team thinking "omg that jacket lol." As bad as that would be in itself. 1) I think facts always matter. And as I just noted to Cass, she didn't wear it to and from the center. Here's video of her arrival in Texas: www.youtube.com/watch?v=VaiPHAb-lCU2) Again, as I noted to Cass, she didn't reallywear the jacket out in the open in front of media cameras. I think the shots of her in it are all via telephoto lenses, as I don't think people are allowed to be snapping pictures that close at Andrews. That adds up to stupid choice, imo.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 22, 2018 13:24:07 GMT -5
I'm trying to think of what the right occasion is for ANY grown woman (let alone the First Lady) to wear that jacket.
My 13-year old niece might think it was edgy, sure. But most of us middle-aged fashion plates, not so much.
I have an anorak for casual wear that's not too dissimilar (though it is better cut and designed, frankly, and several notches more chic). But it doesn't have a childish message on the back. *
Find me another time when Melania engaged in fast fashion with graphic slogans.
And come on, she didn't think every moment of this particular trip would be photographed?
I'm glad she at least had the basic sense to take the jacket off in Texas. But then again, doesn't that demonstrate she was perfectly aware of the message the jacket sent?
*a very casual graphic tee-shirts for running or purely knocking around, etc., maybe, though not for an occasion like this. But a coat? And THAT slogan? Dear lord, isn't it kind of the chief thing the First Lady is supposed to do -- care? Honest to god, taking aside the occasion, I don't think this coat is chic or edgy for a grown woman.
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Post by Amadan on Jun 22, 2018 13:57:08 GMT -5
1) I think facts always matter. And as I just noted to Cass, she didn't wear it to and from the center. Here's video of her arrival in Texas: www.youtube.com/watch?v=VaiPHAb-lCU2) Again, as I noted to Cass, she didn't reallywear the jacket out in the open in front of media cameras. I think the shots of her in it are all via telephoto lenses, as I don't think people are allowed to be snapping pictures that close at Andrews. That adds up to stupid choice, imo. Okay, everyone here is aware that Melania did not wear the jacket to the detention center itself, and if some people on Twitter believe differently, well, I think it makes no real difference in terms of how outraged we should or should not be. It just seems really strange that this particular fact is one you think is really, really important. You're just doing your thing where you go "Yes, Trump is a muppet but here are a bunch of pedantic reasons why criticisms of him are not quite exactly 100% accurate and therefore I will take the thread down this rabbit hole of pedantically enumerating why he only said he wanted to boil kittens, not boil and eat them, so why is everyone insisting he wants to eat kittens when he totally didn't say that?" Do you feel better having now clarified that Melania wore her stupid jacket to and from the detention center but not at the detention center itself? Are you comfortable with our level of awareness of this fact? Do you have any more requests for how we should properly calibrate our reactions to Melania wearing her stupid jacket?
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Post by Deleted on Jun 22, 2018 14:52:42 GMT -5
I often engage in the "this isn't being reported accurately" thing, especially if I see deliberate distortion, when IMO it makes a real difference to the context. I have done so with Trump stories, in fact.
E.g., if those pictures were actually from a year ago when Melania was on her way to Mar-a-lago, and they were retweeted with this story, falsely implying that the coat was worn yesterday, I would 100% be all over Twitter clarifying that this was not the case.
But truly, here I don't think it makes a tremendous difference that she had the decency to remove the coat in Texas. It indicates, in fact, that she knew damn well the coat had a jarring message. If she'd worn it to the center, it would have been worse, yes, but um, yeah, it's still pretty freaking bad. IMO it's at best a passing point.
And the reason it matters so much that we don't just give her a pass she doesn't deserve is because this is literally in the context of drugged, caged children removed, maybe forever, from their families by her husband.
Ditto Mikey's fucking stupid catalog model point, only more so.
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Post by robeiae on Jun 23, 2018 9:52:25 GMT -5
Okay, everyone here is aware that Melania did not wear the jacket to the detention center itself, and if some people on Twitter believe differently, well, I think it makes no real difference in terms of how outraged we should or should not be. Doesn't seem like it. I think--if the argument that her wearing the jacket represents some sort of dog whistle to the far right--it is an important fact, as she didn't really wear the jacket in a public appearance. *shrug* My disagreement here is with the idea that Melania chose to wear the jacket as some sort of purposeful slight to the plight of immigrant children and as a special call-out to xenophobes everywhere. As I said, the jacket was a foolish choice on her part, because of what is on the back of it, because she's First Lady and should realize she might always be under scrutiny. Is my position really all that crazy?
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