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Post by nighttimer on Oct 4, 2018 14:58:42 GMT -5
Well, if I unfriend or block everyone one of my friends who backs Bill Clinoton, I'd have only a handful left... Completely understandable. That Bill Clinoton was such a total butthole. These people are your friends, not mine, Amadan. The Trump supporters I know are embarrassed and ashamed when President Pussygrabber calls the press the enemy of the American people, insults our allies and comfort our enemies, trashes NATO, the FBI, and the Democrats. Shits all over women, gays, people of color, Muslims and anybody else who isn't White, male, pissed off and armed. Respect everyone---as long as they give back what they get. Don't give none, won't get none. Respect everyone, but fear no one. That's my motto and it doesn't change because a bunch of yahoos have rallied behind a demented bigot. No matter how loud they are and how angry they are. I have no time to worry over idiots--and idiocy goes beyond race, gender, and class status--who have joined a cult and rejected all facts and truths contrary to the cult. Ain't nobody got no time for that shit.
I didn't say anything about fearing people. I think a lot of folks who are in a social bubble of like-minded people fail to understand those outside of it. If you know Trump supporters who still support him but are ashamed of him, well, I'm not sure how drinking the kool-aid knowing it's poisoned is better than drinking it in ignorance. Some of the Trump supporters I know are kool-aid gulpers, and some are like celaw - on some level, they know Trump is terrible, they just think nothing is more terrible than letting liberals win. The distinction between those two groups is not really meaningful in pragmatic terms (they're all going to vote the same way) but I find it interesting to understand how people tick. I no longer care how Trump supporters think and see no value in understanding what makes them tick. All those people who sat behind and in front of Trump when he mocked Dr. Ford are just as vile as he is. Every last mother's son and daughter are as bad as he is. They are all as heartless as he is. They laughed and hooted and hollered as Trump punched down at someone who can't fight back. This is the classic definition of being a bully and those Trump supporters got their giggle on over the misery of a likely sexual assault survivor. Someone in that raucous mob of mental midgets has a wife or a daughter or a sister or a friend who has been a victim of sexual assault and when they laughed at Christine Blasey Ford they were laughing at every woman who has been in the position she finds herself in. These are the people I'm supposed to understand? These goobers? You go right ahead and be understanding to the Trump Zombies, Amadan. But miss me with that. I already understand cruelty. I already understand misogyny. I already understand how easy it is to pander to fear and prejudice and ignorance. These people have nothing to teach me and I won't waste my time arguing with hateful, vile, stupid people. They can all collectively go straight to hell. I think a lot of the Trump supporters I know are...how to put this...simply entitled to some degree. On social issues, most are quite liberal, but at an individual level, they find that the world in which they grew up is no longer the world in which they live. And they're unhappy about this. They don't see their children as having the same opportunities that they, themselves, had and see as a root cause here the impact of identity politics on everyday life. There's that and then there's simple economics (again, at a personal level): Trump's policies in this regard are simply more appealing to them. And truth be told, there are aspects of these views which I kinda share, but I don't see Trump as much of a solution to the first issue at all. What is it Trump supporters feel they are "entitled" to? What about the world they live in was supposed to stay the same as the world they grew up in? What has been the impact of "identity politics" on their everyday lives and why isn't income inequality an even bigger impact on their lives?
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Post by robeiae on Oct 4, 2018 15:31:44 GMT -5
I was speaking specifically about a very limited group of people who support Trump--more or less--that I actually know. My comments don't generalize to all Trump supporters in the least (which should actually be apparent, since I noted that they were mostly liberal on social issues; hardly the standard for the hardcore Trumpite).
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Post by nighttimer on Oct 4, 2018 16:54:02 GMT -5
First it was "a lot" of the Trump supporters you know and then it's "a very limited group of people who support Trump--more or less--that I actually know." One is not like the other, so which is it? I've never met a Trump supporter who was mostly liberal on social issues. Like what? A woman's right to make her own reproductive choices? Protecting voting rights for all Americans instead of limiting them? Preserving Obamacare? Opposing separating children from their mothers and fathers? Supporting a rise in the minimum wage? A liberal who supports Trump is a bit like a chicken supporting KFC. Makes no damn sense what so ever. Also I directly asked you three questions. If you don't want to answer all three, try one. I'm not choosy.
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Post by Amadan on Oct 4, 2018 18:06:49 GMT -5
These are the people I'm supposed to understand? These goobers? You go right ahead and be understanding to the Trump Zombies, Amadan. But miss me with that. I already understand cruelty. I already understand misogyny. I already understand how easy it is to pander to fear and prejudice and ignorance. These people have nothing to teach me and I won't waste my time arguing with hateful, vile, stupid people.
There is no "supposed to." I am not suggesting actions for you. I am curious how you differentiate between celaw and all the hateful, vile, stupid Trump Zombies, though.
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Post by celawson on Oct 4, 2018 18:42:02 GMT -5
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Post by Christine on Oct 4, 2018 20:47:53 GMT -5
These are the people I'm supposed to understand? These goobers? You go right ahead and be understanding to the Trump Zombies, Amadan. But miss me with that. I already understand cruelty. I already understand misogyny. I already understand how easy it is to pander to fear and prejudice and ignorance. These people have nothing to teach me and I won't waste my time arguing with hateful, vile, stupid people.
There is no "supposed to." I am not suggesting actions for you. I am curious how you differentiate between celaw and all the hateful, vile, stupid Trump Zombies, though.
Isn't this how it is, though? You know someone who you politically disagree with, but they're your family, or your friend, or they are just plain NICE, and there is a helluva lot of life and social interactions that happen outside of politics. We're all, I think, still capable of interacting this way with people we disagree with politically. NT's (and others') disdain for Trumpers, by and large, isn't any different from c.e.'s disdain for liberals, by and large. So it's fair to ask c.e. the same question. It is interesting that there's a tendency to ignore the outliers (friends, family, nice people) that don't fit the narrative of Horrible People, and yet still believe that a huge population of Horrible People exist. Partisan politics thrives on the existence of an unseen yet most certainly evil "other side," and all the horrible stories about how they want to kill babies, or black people, or steal your money, or let you die, or whatever. People don't see each other, and everyone needs an enemy to rail against.
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Post by Amadan on Oct 4, 2018 21:11:15 GMT -5
It is interesting that there's a tendency to ignore the outliers (friends, family, nice people) that don't fit the narrative of Horrible People, and yet still believe that a huge population of Horrible People exist.
I don't differentiate, though.
I don't categorically believe all Trump voters are evil and stupid. They have their reasons, and some are worse than others. Some are indeed ignorant mouth-breathing zombies. Some are basically ethical people who have very strong ideological blinders. I think celaw is in the latter category. Which doesn't mean I respect her reasoning or her honesty, because she's clearly aware of the cognitive dissonance she's suffering on some level, but, you know, abortion and socialized medicine and the Clintons, so voting anything other than Republican is just never going to be an option for her. It's unfortunate, but it is what it is.
That being the case, though, I think when NT goes off on the vile, racist, misogyny of Trump voters, who are so far beneath him as to not merit any effort whatsoever to understand or engage with, I can't help wondering whether that's all just performative, or whether he carves out a special exception for a few Trump voters he likes personally.
If I really, truly believed everything he says about Trump voters, I would not be able to convince myself that celaw or anyone else is an exception. I might be sad about it, but I wouldn't just pretend that when I say "All those people are evil," it's understood that I mean "Except you. I'm not talking about you."
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Post by Christine on Oct 4, 2018 21:25:49 GMT -5
It is interesting that there's a tendency to ignore the outliers (friends, family, nice people) that don't fit the narrative of Horrible People, and yet still believe that a huge population of Horrible People exist. I don't differentiate, though. Yes, you do. You proceed to differentiate below. Right, which differentiates celaw from the mouth-breathing zombies, yes? And how is that different from what NT has said? You claim there are different categories, and yet, NT is incapable of having his own categories, or something, I'm not sure what you mean. If you mean that once a poster condemns or otherwise mocks Trump voters, he can never, ever give props or have a friendship with a poster who voted for Trump without being called out on it, then.... I disagree. I tried to make a point of this in my post. And I don't think NT is alone in this tendency. I think every single one of us here probably do this to some extent.
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Post by Amadan on Oct 4, 2018 21:44:45 GMT -5
Yes, you do. You proceed to differentiate below. You're misunderstanding me, or I was unclear. I meant if I make a broad statement about a class of people, I don't differentiate between "Class X" and "Individual who happens to be Class X except I know them personally." If it's true of everyone in class X, it's true of the Xs I know personally.
Which is why I try to avoid making absolute statements about classes of people. To me, saying "Trump voters are all racist, misogynist zombies - except celaw" does not make sense. Either there are some Trump voters besides celaw who are not all those things, or celaw is all those things too.
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Post by Christine on Oct 4, 2018 22:16:39 GMT -5
Yes, you do. You proceed to differentiate below. You're misunderstanding me, or I was unclear. I meant if I make a broad statement about a class of people, I don't differentiate between "Class X" and "Individual who happens to be Class X except I know them personally." If it's true of everyone in class X, it's true of the Xs I know personally. Nighttimer mentioned Trump supporters he knew that were embarrassed by some of the things Trump has said. You criticized those supporters in your response (knowingly drinking poisoned koolaid is no better than ignorantly drinking it). You then made a bizarre statement about drinking koolaid versus "being like celaw." So you essentially said what NT said, before he said it and before you called him out for saying it. I'm not following you at all. NT "made a broad statement" about the Trump supporters who show up at his rallies and cheer (e.g.) his mockery of Dr. Ford. You made it a point of contention that NT differentiates between those Trump rally attendees and celaw. Seriously, go back and read the exchanges again. Except NT did not make this claim, so you've strung up a strawman.
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Post by celawson on Oct 4, 2018 23:01:50 GMT -5
There is no "supposed to." I am not suggesting actions for you. I am curious how you differentiate between celaw and all the hateful, vile, stupid Trump Zombies, though.
Isn't this how it is, though? You know someone who you politically disagree with, but they're your family, or your friend, or they are just plain NICE, and there is a helluva lot of life and social interactions that happen outside of politics. We're all, I think, still capable of interacting this way with people we disagree with politically. NT's (and others') disdain for Trumpers, by and large, isn't any different from c.e.'s disdain for liberals, by and large. So it's fair to ask c.e. the same question. It is interesting that there's a tendency to ignore the outliers (friends, family, nice people) that don't fit the narrative of Horrible People, and yet still believe that a huge population of Horrible People exist. Partisan politics thrives on the existence of an unseen yet most certainly evil "other side," and all the horrible stories about how they want to kill babies, or black people, or steal your money, or let you die, or whatever. People don't see each other, and everyone needs an enemy to rail against. But I don't have disdain for liberals as a group. I think they're wrong. But I don't think they're bad, or evil, or deplorable, or the dregs of society, or any of a number of derogatory terms many leftists use against the right. They're just wrong on a lot of things. It doesn't make them bad people unless they do bad stuff. For instance, a leftist who wants the minimum wage raised in a town is, IMO, going to do damage to the economics of that town and probably cause hardship to small business owners, and these hardships will of course be extended to the employees. And in the long run, minimum wage employees will be worse off. The intentions are good. They're not "bad people". But not being bad people doesn't mean their policies won't be extremely harmful. That's why I voted for Trump over Clinton. I didn't hate Clinton, I just wanted our country's policies to go in a different direction from Obama. I look at the person, not the politics, when I decide if someone is deplorable or not. In the Kavanaugh circus, some Dems have acted deplorably and some have acted admirably. Again, it's not simply the politics. I'm married to a liberal, by the way. He wears Birkenstocks and he's driving his third electric car. He hates Trump with a passion and I will be frank here and say my voting for Trump put our marriage at risk. Of course I didn't realize it until after, but he seriously had a hard time with that. I'm not exaggerating. I've never felt that way with his politics, like it could hurt our relationship. And I honestly don't get that. But there it is.
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Post by Amadan on Oct 5, 2018 5:43:15 GMT -5
You're misunderstanding me, or I was unclear. I meant if I make a broad statement about a class of people, I don't differentiate between "Class X" and "Individual who happens to be Class X except I know them personally." If it's true of everyone in class X, it's true of the Xs I know personally. Nighttimer mentioned Trump supporters he knew that were embarrassed by some of the things Trump has said. You criticized those supporters in your response (knowingly drinking poisoned koolaid is no better than ignorantly drinking it). You then made a bizarre statement about drinking koolaid versus "being like celaw." So you essentially said what NT said, before he said it and before you called him out for saying it. I'm not following you at all. NT "made a broad statement" about the Trump supporters who show up at his rallies and cheer (e.g.) his mockery of Dr. Ford. You made it a point of contention that NT differentiates between those Trump rally attendees and celaw. Seriously, go back and read the exchanges again. Except NT did not make this claim, so you've strung up a strawman. No, you're not following me at all, but you seem really, tiresomely determined to fight over this. NT scoffed at the idea that I might want to understand why Trump voters vote the way they do. You can read it as a narrow statement specifically about Trump voters at the anti-Ford rally, but I didn't. You started off by saying it's always the way that we make exceptions in our hated "outgroup" for people we know. I don't.
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Post by robeiae on Oct 5, 2018 7:55:34 GMT -5
First it was "a lot" of the Trump supporters you know and then it's "a very limited group of people who support Trump--more or less--that I actually know." One is not like the other, so which is it? I've never met a Trump supporter who was mostly liberal on social issues. Like what? A woman's right to make her own reproductive choices? Protecting voting rights for all Americans instead of limiting them? Preserving Obamacare? Opposing separating children from their mothers and fathers? Supporting a rise in the minimum wage? A liberal who supports Trump is a bit like a chicken supporting KFC. Makes no damn sense what so ever. Also I directly asked you three questions. If you don't want to answer all three, try one. I'm not choosy. "A lot of the Trump supporters I know." If I know ten Trump supporters (I do know more, actually), something true about seven of them would be something true about a lot of them. So it's still a limited group I'm talking about. So again, a lot of these people are quite liberal on social issues. They're pro-choice, they're pro-gay marriage, and opposed to discriminatory groups and policies in general (I wouldn't define minimum wage and Obamacare issues as social issues at all, however). What they're not is rabid about these things, which I realize has become a seriously tough position to hold, as there exist so many mouth-breathers on the left and right who see anyone who is not 1000% in as being on the other side. It's like suggesting that Swetnick's story is bs, even if one accepts Ford's story and others 100%: for the mouth-breathers, such a position equals supporting Kavanaugh. But again, I'm talking about what is still a relatively small group--Trump supporters that I know--that hardly generalizes to all or even most Trump supporters. Plus, there are clear differences in levels of support, I think. The most gung-ho Trump supporters out there seem to be xenophobic, misogynistic bigots. Not a good look, obviously.
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Post by Amadan on Oct 5, 2018 8:36:38 GMT -5
I feel like these conversations have been going on since... oh, I guess the GWB years. A lot of liberals I knew then were about as incensed about Bush's election as they are today over Trump. (I think the reaction to Trump is slightly worse, but people who think Trump is some new nadir of polarization aren't remembering just how much people hated Bush.) And I kind of had the same attitude then - "Yeah, I don't like him and I think if you voted for him, you made a mistake, but not all the people who voted for him are warmongering brown-people-hating misogynists who also want the poor to die in the streets." Mostly, they were like celaw - they thought the alternative, the "liberal agenda," was worse.
Today, I am thinking of one guy I know in particular who posts lots and lots of pro-Trump, pro-Kavanaugh memes on FB. (Yeah, I really should just block him or at least set him on "Sick of seeing you, timeout for the next 30 days." I like that setting.) Anyway, he's... not stupid. He's not evil. And he's not a bigot. He's also not pro-sexual assault. He just really, really believes that Kavanaugh is an innocent man being attacked by an orchestrated leftist smear campaign, and that Trump is great for America because unemployment is down and he made North Korea roll over (har) and all the other stuff about Trump's misdeeds and pecadillos is exaggerated hit pieces by the Liberal Media. Also, pro-life, and maybe he realizes on some level that Trump isn't really pro-life and couldn't care less about abortion, and maybe he doesn't, but he knows that Democrats are not pro-life and that's really important to him, so he's going to rationalize and justify his support for Trump (while occasionally admitting that yeah, Trump should get off Twitter) because the alternatives, to him, are worse.
I'm not trying to apologize for him and for voters like him. I think they are blind and dumb in a lot of ways. I think the same way about celaw. Sorry, celaw, but I think your ideological blinders compel you to just rationalize and equivocate away the things you know are wrong, because the reality is, you'd vote for Trump even if you accepted that everything we say about him is true, because the things that really matter to you, like abortion and not going to a single-payer healthcare system, are Republican issues, so you're stuck with whoever the Republicans offer.
But, this guy I'm talking about is fundamentally a decent person. I like him, we get along in person.
If he were fundamentally a decent person and we got along in person but he also believed that women shouldn't vote or all Mexicans should be deported, I wouldn't be able to overlook that. But I can overlook "But don't you believe in INNOCENT UNTIL PROVEN GUILTY? If Kavanaugh isn't confirmed, the Democrats will accuse EVERY Trump nominee of being a rapist 4EVER!!!!!" (Well, I don't overlook it - I argue with him about it. But I don't put him in the "Beyond reach, contemptible" category.)
I feel the same about celaw. I do like you, celaw, at least based on our minimal online interactions. I think you're wrong and not always intellectually honest, but I am pretty sure you're a kind and decent person with a kneejerk ideology.
So anyway, some people I know online are much more strident and are literally in the "Defriend anyone who votes Republican" camp. And to be fair, there was a lot of that going on from the other side when Obama was elected.
I also know if I voted for Trump, it would absolutely be a dealbreaker for my SO.
I am not about treating all opinions as equally valid, but even someone who was a true deplorable, someone I'd never want as a friend, I'll still engage with them out of intellectual curiosity if nothing else, which is why I read some alt-right stuff as well as some hard left SJW blogs and forums.
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Post by Christine on Oct 5, 2018 8:48:19 GMT -5
But I don't have disdain for liberals as a group. I think they're wrong. But I don't think they're bad, or evil, or deplorable, or the dregs of society, or any of a number of derogatory terms many leftists use against the right. Maybe "liberals" is the wrong word. Do you disdain "leftists"? Or maybe disdain is the wrong word, maybe you don't disdain anyone. But I think you at the very least have a negative view of "leftists," as many liberals have of "Trumpers" (as opposed to conservatives). The point is we all tend to create groups and put people in them, making exceptions for people we know (except for Amadan, I guess). Re: the bolded and underlined statement - don't forget about all the derogatory terms many on the right use against the left. That's... not the definition of a liberal. Especially the Tesla part. But I believe you. . I'm actually having an extremely difficult time liking my own Trump-supporting family members. I'm avoiding them so that I don't end up outright hating them. I never felt like this before Trump, even with their anti-Obama rhetoric and conspiracy theories and other bullshit. And really, it's not "just" Trump; it's an accumulation of things that causes me to despair, honestly. No, you're not following me at all, but you seem really, tiresomely determined to fight over this. NT scoffed at the idea that I might want to understand why Trump voters vote the way they do. You can read it as a narrow statement specifically about Trump voters at the anti-Ford rally, but I didn't. You started off by saying it's always the way that we make exceptions in our hated "outgroup" for people we know. I don't. Yes, we take them out of the outgroup, because we know them. My point was once you know someone, you don't see them as horrible, not that they're still horrible and you just ignore it. I'm not trying to fight, I just think you're misrepresenting what NT said in order to make an argument or a statement about yourself or... well, I still don't get it. Guess I'll have to die in ignorance. Re: wanting to understand Trump voters in general, I think the various reasons among various people are pretty clear. Though a Venn diagram might be helpful.
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