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Post by Deleted on Oct 16, 2018 10:50:05 GMT -5
[snip] ...then he goes and Tweets about Stormy this morning, calling her "Horseface".......sigh. Roy Moore's horse had the best response to this: (I LOVE this parody account. Whoever it is doesn't tweet as much as he/she did during Roy Moore's candidacy, but it always makes me laugh.)
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Post by celawson on Oct 16, 2018 10:55:52 GMT -5
Chris Cillizza at CNN: <iframe style="position: absolute; width: 20.38px; height: 3.42px; z-index: -9999; border-style: none; left: 15px; top: 27px;" id="MoatPxIOPT0_79698301" scrolling="no" width="20.379999999999995" height="3.4200000000000017"></iframe> <iframe style="position: absolute; width: 20.38px; height: 3.42px; z-index: -9999; border-style: none; left: 963px; top: 27px;" id="MoatPxIOPT0_87250807" scrolling="no" width="20.379999999999995" height="3.4200000000000017"></iframe> <iframe style="position: absolute; width: 20.38px; height: 3.42px; z-index: -9999; border-style: none; left: 15px; top: 144px;" id="MoatPxIOPT0_2735728" scrolling="no" width="20.379999999999995" height="3.4200000000000017"></iframe> <iframe style="position: absolute; width: 20.38px; height: 3.42px; z-index: -9999; border-style: none; left: 963px; top: 144px;" id="MoatPxIOPT0_35211529" scrolling="no" width="20.379999999999995" height="3.4200000000000017"></iframe> www.cnn.com/2018/10/16/politics/elizabeth-warren-donald-trump-pocahontas/index.html
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Post by Optimus on Oct 16, 2018 11:04:42 GMT -5
I'm still in amazement that Warren thought this was actually a good idea.... Agreed. Whatever adviser(s) put her up to this and convinced her it was a good idea should be fired immediately.
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Post by celawson on Oct 16, 2018 11:11:06 GMT -5
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Post by Amadan on Oct 16, 2018 11:20:22 GMT -5
I did not mean it was a contract. Of course it isn't. Of course the whole thing is stupid. Of course it would be idiotic for Warren to try to enforce it, in court or otherwise Of course she should just fucking drop it (better yet, go back in time and never raise it in the first place). The challenge is fucking stupid. Her taking the DNA test (or at least announcing the result) was stupid. She should have just fucking ignored it. Let's take all of that as a given. All of this is fucking annoying and stupid, and a massive distraction from everything that actually matters. This is simply a hypothetical kicking-the-shit around question of whether Warren in fact met the terms of Trump's challenge. I think she did. What I was getting at is the meaning of "Indian", in the given context -- is it fair to interpret Trump's challenge as meaning Warren would have to be all or mostly "Indian", given that Warren never claimed anything but distant ancestry? Don says yes, but I don't think it is. I think the challenge was for her to take a DNA test -- and that his bet was that she would not, because it would show she had no "Indian" blood. In fact, she took the challenge, and while she doesn't have much, she has some. (I can't not put "Indian" in quotes.) I get what you are saying from a legalistic POV. Technically, Trump's "challenge" would be satisfied by Warren proving she had basically any detectable amount of Native American ancestry. Because his challenge, as issued, was not thought out, it was just blustering, shot from the hip. The problem here is no one, on the right or the left, cares that you can dissect Trump's words the way you did, look at what can be inferred outside the four corners of the statement, and conclude that "If she has one drop of Indian DNA, she qualifies under a reasonable interpretation of Trump's challenge." What everyone understood both Warren to be claiming, and Trump to be challenging, was that Warren had a genuine, traceable connection to Native American heritage - not just "somewhere back in my family tree, someone married an Indian" - but enough of a lineage that her claiming NA heritage isn't the sort of bullshit "My great-grandmother was a Cherokee Princess" claim that has become a stereotypical thing for white Americans to say. The reality is that she is pretty much a walking caricature now - a Basic Becky white girl who claimed and doubled down on her Cherokee Princess ancestor. Trump called her out on it, and no matter how offensive, clumsy, and racist he was about doing it, he scored. No level of "Well, actually she did kinda sorta prove what she said was true" is going to cover that up.
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Post by robeiae on Oct 16, 2018 11:20:53 GMT -5
Okay, that's hilarious, because it's critical of Warren and self-deprecating at the same time. The comments on it are equally hilarious, but for different reasons...
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Post by Deleted on Oct 16, 2018 11:27:15 GMT -5
I'm still in amazement that Warren thought this was actually a good idea.... Agreed. Whatever adviser(s) put her up to this and convinced her it was a good idea should be fired immediately. Agree. And by the way, despite my doing some defending of Warren here (to the extent that I don't think Warren did anything Evvill and that much too big a deal is being made of it all), this illustrates one reason why I do not want Warren to be the Dem candidate for president in 2020. Her deciding to help Trump make a big deal out of the "Indian" thing with midterms three weeks away and so many really fucking IMPORTANT things that need to be discussed and put before voters is just... yeah. I don't dislike her, I think she's done some good stuff, I think she cares about her constituency, and as politicians go, she's not corrupt. But she's absolutely not the person to rally the Dems to victory in 2020.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 16, 2018 11:35:09 GMT -5
I did not mean it was a contract. Of course it isn't. Of course the whole thing is stupid. Of course it would be idiotic for Warren to try to enforce it, in court or otherwise Of course she should just fucking drop it (better yet, go back in time and never raise it in the first place). The challenge is fucking stupid. Her taking the DNA test (or at least announcing the result) was stupid. She should have just fucking ignored it. Let's take all of that as a given. All of this is fucking annoying and stupid, and a massive distraction from everything that actually matters. This is simply a hypothetical kicking-the-shit around question of whether Warren in fact met the terms of Trump's challenge. I think she did. What I was getting at is the meaning of "Indian", in the given context -- is it fair to interpret Trump's challenge as meaning Warren would have to be all or mostly "Indian", given that Warren never claimed anything but distant ancestry? Don says yes, but I don't think it is. I think the challenge was for her to take a DNA test -- and that his bet was that she would not, because it would show she had no "Indian" blood. In fact, she took the challenge, and while she doesn't have much, she has some. (I can't not put "Indian" in quotes.) I get what you are saying from a legalistic POV. Technically, Trump's "challenge" would be satisfied by Warren proving she had basically any detectable amount of Native American ancestry. Because his challenge, as issued, was not thought out, it was just blustering, shot from the hip. The problem here is no one, on the right or the left, cares that you can dissect Trump's words the way you did, look at what can be inferred outside the four corners of the statement, and conclude that "If she has one drop of Indian DNA, she qualifies under a reasonable interpretation of Trump's challenge." What everyone understood both Warren to be claiming, and Trump to be challenging, was that Warren had a genuine, traceable connection to Native American heritage - not just "somewhere back in my family tree, someone married an Indian" - but enough of a lineage that her claiming NA heritage isn't the sort of bullshit "My great-grandmother was a Cherokee Princess" claim that has become a stereotypical thing for white Americans to say. The reality is that she is pretty much a walking caricature now - a Basic Becky white girl who claimed and doubled down on her Cherokee Princess ancestor. Trump called her out on it, and no matter how offensive, clumsy, and racist he was about doing it, he scored. No level of "Well, actually she did kinda sorta prove what she said was true" is going to cover that up. And, actually, I don't disagree with this. The smart thing for her to have done in response to Trump's continuing jibes about the "Indian" thing, in light of the midterms being three weeks away, would be to ignore it. If she were going to do something, I'd say doing a walkback addressed to Native Americans, saying that her intentions hadn't been to injure anyone, but (graceful apology) -- though now is not necessarily the best time for that, either. There isn't anything about this whole thing that isn't stupid. I think that Trump's challenge and continuing jibes are also stupid, and much uglier. But she showed extremely poor judgment in engaging him on it, especially now.
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Post by prozyan on Oct 16, 2018 11:36:19 GMT -5
I don't think Elizabeth Warren realizes how much contempt actual Native Americans (which though I have membership in the Cherokee nation, I don't consider myself Native American) had for her already....and this certainly did not help.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 16, 2018 11:54:10 GMT -5
If there is a bright side to this whole stupid debacle, I think it's that it will likely be the death blow to serious discussions of her being the 2020 Dem candidate. For a whole lot of reasons, I think she would not be a good choice. This mess should make that clear to at least some of her backers. (I'd like to see Bernie blow up, too, frankly.)
That said, I hope this shit dies down ASAP and that everyone focuses on actual important shit. Christ, I can't even keep up with the important shit happening, and all this energy is being wasted on Trump's dumb-ass challenge and Warren's dumb-ass DNA test.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 16, 2018 12:08:37 GMT -5
[snip] ...then he goes and Tweets about Stormy this morning, calling her "Horseface".......sigh. Roy Moore's horse had the best response to this: (I LOVE this parody account. Whoever it is doesn't tweet as much as he/she did during Roy Moore's candidacy, but it always makes me laugh.) LOL! I completely forgot that Trump also told Stormy she reminded him of Ivanka. Surely he does not think his daughter is a horseface?! (I actually think Stormy has a genuinely pretty face. Her fake breasts are the only thing about her appearance I think is unattractive -- they're way out of proportion. But I rather doubt Trump agrees with me on that.)
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Post by robeiae on Oct 16, 2018 14:25:30 GMT -5
I did not mean it was a contract. Of course it isn't. Of course the whole thing is stupid. Of course it would be idiotic for Warren to try to enforce it, in court or otherwise Of course she should just fucking drop it (better yet, go back in time and never raise it in the first place). The challenge is fucking stupid. Her taking the DNA test (or at least announcing the result) was stupid. She should have just fucking ignored it. Let's take all of that as a given. All of this is fucking annoying and stupid, and a massive distraction from everything that actually matters. This is simply a hypothetical kicking-the-shit around question of whether Warren in fact met the terms of Trump's challenge. I think she did. What I was getting at is the meaning of "Indian", in the given context -- is it fair to interpret Trump's challenge as meaning Warren would have to be all or mostly "Indian", given that Warren never claimed anything but distant ancestry? Don says yes, but I don't think it is. I think the challenge was for her to take a DNA test -- and that his bet was that she would not, because it would show she had no "Indian" blood. In fact, she took the challenge, and while she doesn't have much, she has some. (I can't not put "Indian" in quotes.) Okay, on the hypothetical kicking-the-shit around question, I'm going to have to disagree with you and agree with Don. Trump very clearly said he'd pony up if the test "shows you're [Warren] and Indian." He didn't say part Indian, trace Indian, or anything like that. Haven't thought about it a bit, I don't think you could actually make the case that Warren won this hypothetical bet in the least, because no reasonable person can conclude--on the basis of the presented results--that Warren should be classified as an "Indian." In fact, Trump's phraseology pretty much rendered this moot before the test: Warren is either an "Indian" or she's not an "Indian." There's no "part-" in his challenge. You cite Warren's claims as a basis here, but Trump actually says-- in the full quote--this: Now obviously, Trump is misstating Warren's claims (shocking, right?), but that is his starting point: she claims "she is of Indian heritage." And his implication in that regard is clear, I think, given the words in "the bet": he's assuming (wrongly) she thinks she's essentially an "Indian," first and foremost. So the test would have to show Warren is predominately of Native American descent for Trump to lose (from his pov). Which I think leaves you--at best--with the conclusion that there was no meeting of the minds here (again, shocking).
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Post by nighttimer on Oct 16, 2018 15:10:07 GMT -5
And by the way, despite my doing some defending of Warren here (to the extent that I don't think Warren did anything Evvill and that much too big a deal is being made of it all), this illustrates one reason why I do not want Warren to be the Dem candidate for president in 2020. Her deciding to help Trump make a big deal out of the "Indian" thing with midterms three weeks away and so many really fucking IMPORTANT things that need to be discussed and put before voters is just... yeah. I don't dislike her, I think she's done some good stuff, I think she cares about her constituency, and as politicians go, she's not corrupt. But she's absolutely not the person to rally the Dems to victory in 2020. If there is a bright side to this whole stupid debacle, I think it's that it will likely be the death blow to serious discussions of her being the 2020 Dem candidate. For a whole lot of reasons, I think she would not be a good choice. This mess should make that clear to at least some of her backers. (I'd like to see Bernie blow up, too, frankly.) You're dreaming. You really think being snarked at by sexist pigs like Trump, Graham and Hatch---after the way they dragged Dr. Blasey Ford through the mud and got away with elevating a creep like Brent Kavanaugh to the Supreme Court---is now a disqualifier for Liz Warren in 2020? Think again. There's nothing coincidental in the way the Right has trained its fire on Warren. They read the same articles I do including the one from CNN yesterday where Warren is the leader of the 2020 Democratic pack.The last thing-- the very last thing I want to see in 2020--is another safe-as-milk, bland, boring-ass mainstream corporate Chuck Schumer type of Democrat on the presidential ticket. Maybe Warren fucked up by responding to Trump's taunts. Maybe Warren thought she'd take time out from cruising to reelection next month to devote some of her time and attention to shutting up Trump with facts. That was her mistake. Trump is fact-adverse and so are his legion of zombies. They make up their own facts and ignore all others. Eff them. That's what Warren should have done. But since she didn't, is that a reasson to put her presidential aspirations in the dumpster? HELL NO. The Left is so eager to eat their own the first time they royally fuck up. The Right doesn't give a damn. Liberals want their politicians to be pure. Conservatives just want them to win.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 16, 2018 15:36:39 GMT -5
I did not mean it was a contract. Of course it isn't. Of course the whole thing is stupid. Of course it would be idiotic for Warren to try to enforce it, in court or otherwise Of course she should just fucking drop it (better yet, go back in time and never raise it in the first place). The challenge is fucking stupid. Her taking the DNA test (or at least announcing the result) was stupid. She should have just fucking ignored it. Let's take all of that as a given. All of this is fucking annoying and stupid, and a massive distraction from everything that actually matters. This is simply a hypothetical kicking-the-shit around question of whether Warren in fact met the terms of Trump's challenge. I think she did. What I was getting at is the meaning of "Indian", in the given context -- is it fair to interpret Trump's challenge as meaning Warren would have to be all or mostly "Indian", given that Warren never claimed anything but distant ancestry? Don says yes, but I don't think it is. I think the challenge was for her to take a DNA test -- and that his bet was that she would not, because it would show she had no "Indian" blood. In fact, she took the challenge, and while she doesn't have much, she has some. (I can't not put "Indian" in quotes.) Okay, on the hypothetical kicking-the-shit around question, I'm going to have to disagree with you and agree with Don. Trump very clearly said he'd pony up if the test "shows you're [Warren] and Indian." He didn't say part Indian, trace Indian, or anything like that. Haven't thought about it a bit, I don't think you could actually make the case that Warren won this hypothetical bet in the least, because no reasonable person can conclude--on the basis of the presented results--that Warren should be classified as an "Indian." In fact, Trump's phraseology pretty much rendered this moot before the test: Warren is either an "Indian" or she's not an "Indian." There's no "part-" in his challenge. You cite Warren's claims as a basis here, but Trump actually says-- in the full quote--this: Now obviously, Trump is misstating Warren's claims (shocking, right?), but that is his starting point: she claims "she is of Indian heritage." And his implication in that regard is clear, I think, given the words in "the bet": he's assuming (wrongly) she thinks she's essentially an "Indian," first and foremost. So the test would have to show Warren is predominately of Native American descent for Trump to lose (from his pov). Which I think leaves you--at best--with the conclusion that there was no meeting of the minds here (again, shocking). How could a test possibly have shown Warren was "predominantly" of "Indian" heritage when Warren never claimed that either her parents or her grandparents were full-blooded Native Americans? In fact, it's clear from her anecdotes that none of them were full-blooded Native Americans. That being the case, she couldn't possibly have been even as much as 25%. No person listening to her could reasonably have thought she was claiming to be "predominantly" of "Indian" blood.
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Post by Optimus on Oct 16, 2018 15:48:03 GMT -5
[How could a test possibly have shown Warren was "predominantly" of "Indian" heritage when Warren never claimed that either her parents or her grandparents were full-blooded Native Americans? In fact, it's clear from her anecdotes that none of them were full-blooded Native Americans. That being the case, she couldn't possibly have been even as much as 25%. No person listening to her could reasonably have thought she was claiming to be "predominantly" of "Indian" blood. Exactly. Trump is not a reasonable person, and therein lies the rub. He grossly exaggerated her claims (I'm being generous to Warren by phrasing it that way) and then made a "bet" under the guise of criteria she could not possibly ever hope to fulfill. She then took the troll-bait and provided "evidence" that did not actually meet the criterion he set forth, yet she claimed that it did. What she thought was a slick, calculated "gotcha" move is now blowing up in her face.He won, yet again, because he continues to play the Left like a fiddle. She is yet another example of someone falling for his trolling hook, line, and sinker and looking like an idiot because of it. Another prominent example I can think of is Rachel Maddow's "burying the lede" teases about Trump's tax returns, hyping it up her entire show, and then looking foolish at the end when she basically had a whole bunch of nothing. To this day, I'm still convinced that Trump's tax return for that one year that mysteriously, anonymously got mailed to Maddow was actually mailed from Trump's camp, knowing that she would lap it up like kool-aid and wind up looking stupid because of it. The left really needs to learn how to not fall for the trolling of the far-right. They will never win those battles. Warren is just another casualty of this propensity of liberals to take the bait.
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