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Post by markesq on Oct 18, 2018 12:24:27 GMT -5
I suppose this is the right section for this...
Other than caging children, if it pans out the way I think it will, this incident will be the most disgusting, disgraceful, immoral act of this president and his toadies yet.
How I think it will play out: Trump and his lackies will continue to ask for "time to investigate," all the while talking about what great friends we are with Saudi Arabia, and how important it is we sell weapons to them. In a few days, maybe a week or more, there will be convincing evidence that MBS either knew about this or ordered it. There will be no change of tune at the top, nor ramifications for MBS. We'll (continue) to hear things like, "Well, there's no boody so maybe he's in hiding," or "They said they didn't do it!"
But there's already strong evidence linking this murder to the highest echelons of power in SA, including MBS himself.
This is horrific. As someone on Twitter pointed out, a US resident was brutally murdered on NATO territory for criticizing a supposed ally.
Why do I think Trump et al will do nothing? Because for them it's money over decency. Every. Damn. Time.
As a former journalist and as a prosecutor, I am terrified and ashamed about how this is playing out.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 18, 2018 12:46:13 GMT -5
Oh, god. I've been following this story and am horrified beyond words. And I'm horrified at the Trump administration's reaction to it, which I believe is shaped by Trump's Saudi business ties as well as those of his family and administration.
I came here and started a thread half a dozen times and then deleted it. I admit, that's at least partly because my horror runs deep and I'm likely to get queasy if anyone attempts to justify Trump's handling of it thus far.
I'm glad you started the thread, Mark, since it clearly deserves one. But god. It may be one I need to walk away from with regularity.
RIP, Jamal Khashoggi. God knows you didn't die in peace.
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Post by Amadan on Oct 18, 2018 12:55:11 GMT -5
For some reason, this pisses me off more than anything else Trump has done.
Just once, Mr. Trump, just fucking once, do the right thing.
(I know. I know. He won't.)
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Post by Deleted on Oct 18, 2018 13:04:46 GMT -5
It's certainly up there for me, too, Amadan. Everything about this horrifies me to a degree that I can't even rant about it yet.
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Post by mikey on Oct 18, 2018 13:05:16 GMT -5
Don't worry all, the US will invade Iran or some such place in retaliation for this, just as soon as the government safely escorts SA nationals back home
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Post by Don on Oct 18, 2018 14:17:13 GMT -5
Trump won't break precedent on this. He's not likely to be the first president in decades to pull his nose out of Saudi Arabia's ass. He's more bluster, but no braver than his predecessors.
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Post by celawson on Oct 18, 2018 14:18:18 GMT -5
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Post by Deleted on Oct 18, 2018 14:29:22 GMT -5
Okay. Here's where I walk away from this site for the rest of the day, and possibly the weekend, because my inclination to rant here is strong. But you know, I know that's a complete waste of my time and energy. There isn't any point. I know that if Trump sawed off Khashoggi's fingers himself, you'd find a way to excuse him. You'd find a Federalist article where someone explained how that was justifiable, or at least worth it because taxes and Hillary. And oh, there would definitely be such a Federalist article.
I shall content myself with this.
NO. NO. NO. FUCKING NO. THERE IS NOTHING CORRECT ABOUT WHAT THE ADMINISTRATION IS DOING OR HAS DONE ABOUT THIS. IT'S FUCKING ABOMINABLE.
That's it. I'm walking away before my head explodes. Mark and Amadan may be more able than I am to engage in a discussion about it. At the moment, I cannot. I really cannot.
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Post by Amadan on Oct 18, 2018 14:51:11 GMT -5
This incident horrified me as well. How could it not? But the situation is so extremely complicated (in who Khashoggi was, and with what happened and how and why,) with so many layers, and the handling of it could have such significant ramifications on the world stage, that we should be more cautious that simply to take it at face value of what we're seeing in the MSM right now. The administration is correct to take time and thoughtfully consider the best approach forward from here. And when the administration says "The Saudis said they had nothing to do with it and we believe them, so we're not going to do anything, but our thoughts and prayers are with Kashoggi's family," you'll say they did exactly the right thing. Because it's so sad and complicated. If video is released showing Trump personally sawing off Kashoggi's fingers, you'll find a way to blame the MSM for blowing things out of proportion.
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Post by markesq on Oct 18, 2018 14:59:26 GMT -5
Well, c.e., I looked at your articles and here's my summary: the first one is simply a "Hey, the Saudis are important allies," which I already knew and isn't an excuse for looking the other way.
The ten-reasons list starts out moderately coherent but then he starts talking about a bunch of utterly irrelevant stuff, which reads to me as nothing ore than a "Hey, look over here!" attempt to justify inaction. Nothing convincing in there at all. He does suggest that the US govt may have known in advance about the Saudis targeting JK, but that hardly helps the pro-Trump case, now does it?
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Post by celawson on Oct 18, 2018 15:19:34 GMT -5
I'm not saying look away, nor is either of the two opinion pieces. What they are saying is gather more info, think about consequences of possible courses of action, and proceed cautiously. I think it's interesting that Trump is usually blasted for being too impulsive, yet when he's taking some time to gather info and do the right thing, he's still blasted.
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Post by Amadan on Oct 18, 2018 15:29:32 GMT -5
I'm not saying look away, nor is either of the two opinion pieces. What they are saying is gather more info, think about consequences of possible courses of action, and proceed cautiously. I think it's interesting that Trump is usually blasted for being too impulsive, yet when he's taking some time to gather info and do the right thing, he's still blasted. No one is saying he should immediately sever our alliance with Saudi Arabia. We know that's not going to happen, and even if we get undeniable proof that this was a Saudi op approved by the Saudi government, we can't just end all ties with them. But right from the start, Trump's statements have been mealymouthed, equivocal, and weak. Leading most of us to conclude that he's already decided nothing is going to happen no matter what. If this had happened during Obama's presidency and Obama had responded like this, you'd have been all over what a weak, spineless puppet of the Saudis he was proving himself to be. And frankly, I think "gather more info" is bullshit. From news articles already out there, there is already pretty damning evidence that's been leaked, and provided by Turkish intelligence, and I don't believe for a second that the Trump Administration doesn't already know exactly what happened. They are "proceeding cautiously" to figure out how they can spin this or let it fade out of the news cycle without having to take action, not because they're carefully "gathering info."
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Post by markesq on Oct 18, 2018 15:36:21 GMT -5
Agree with Amadan.
I mean, some of the fifteen people who were part of the grab team traveled extensively with MBS. They arrived on Saudi govt planes. If we know that as mere peasants reading the news, what do you think the CIA, and ergo Trump, knows? This is a big old delay tactic so some other international or national outrage can bump it from the front pages and Trump can continue to make money with the Saudis.
I can only hope that since it's a journalist who was murdered, the media won't let it go that easily.
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Post by nighttimer on Oct 19, 2018 20:20:05 GMT -5
I'm not saying look away, nor is either of the two opinion pieces. What they are saying is gather more info, think about consequences of possible courses of action, and proceed cautiously. I think it's interesting that Trump is usually blasted for being too impulsive, yet when he's taking some time to gather info and do the right thing, he's still blasted. What Trump has been doing does not have a blessed thing to do with gathering info and doing the right thing. The only information he wants is disinformation he can feed to the naive, gullible and willfully/stupidly blind members of his extreme cult of personality. And by the way, celawson, I take great offense when you say take what the mainstream media reports at "face value" and offer instead links to two opinion pieces which support your go-slow on the disappearance, torture, and murder of Jamal Khashoggi.
I'm going to type two words. Just two little words and two I'm 1000% confident no one at any time has ever typed on The Colline Gate:
Trump engaged in his usual baffle 'em with bullshit game of "never mind that, what about this?" He got a few days grace out of trash-talking Elizabeth Warren and Stormy Daniels, anonymous whispers of a screaming match between John Bolton and John Kelly (fuck 'em both with a rusty fork), or some ridiculous video by a third-rate rapper throwing sexist shade at Melania yet none of this drove the Khashoggi story off the front pages and lead story on cable network shows not on Faux News. Maybe the media is starting to get hip to these sort of "Ooh, Shiny!" distractions which have served Trump so well in drawing attention away from what really matters.
Make no mistake about it, celawson, nobody is going to buy that you'd be praising Barack Obama for taking time to gather info if Jamal Khasoggi were named Jacob Steinberg and he were an Israeli citizen taken by ISIS instead of the Saudis and ending up murdered, cut-up and carried out in bloody chunks to be disposed of like garbage, it would be a much different song you and the other Trumpettes would be singing. You'd be demanding sending in the Marines or drawing up articles of impeachment for Obama permitting Islamic extremists to butcher an innocent man without a forceful response by the United States. Maybe even if he happened to be a contributor to the Washington Post.
Choose whatever narrative allows you to rationalize a man's agonizing death, but when you say forget whatever the mainstream media says and buy into the b.s of op-eds which echo your desire to cover Trump, Jared Kushner and the Saudis collective asses, I ain't about to hear that noise. Not when I know all Trump and Pompeo are doing is giving the Saudis time to come up with enough plausible deniability to divert the blame to some "rogue killers" who 15-strong entered an embassy to spring a death trap.
Perhaps if Trump treated physicians like shit the same way he treats journalists, you'd see it a bit differently. Or maybe not.
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Post by Don on Oct 20, 2018 5:12:44 GMT -5
Gee, Trump is having a positive effect on politics afterall. It's nice to see so many who ignored the crimes of Saudi Arabia under the last several administrations finally waking up.
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