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Post by Deleted on Oct 23, 2018 13:25:09 GMT -5
Those were reasons why we shouldn't go in with guns blazing, not why the murder wasn't morally reprehensible. Please. And you both knew that when you read my list. You're too intelligent not to understand what I was saying. (But of course Trump hatred can blind people to the obvious, so I should take that into consideration.) I don't respect your condescension here, either, frankly. Read what you wrote. Or maybe you can't see it anymore, I don't know. ETA: Again, read in particular your first four lines of the post I quoted. Explain to me why they're there and what you meant by them. Several of us are reading them the same way. Nighttimer does, too -- it's not just meanie mcmeanie Amadan and I. Explain it to us. Why does the stuff you started your post with (he's not a citizen, etc.) matter?
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Post by celawson on Oct 23, 2018 13:35:57 GMT -5
This is what I wrote:
Did you not see that part of the post? And that built on my previous post where I said:
And I also said:
ALL of my posts are consistent. My point in ALL of those posts is that Trump should take enough time to gather the information and make the correct decision on his response. There is no need to rush in. That is all I meant. There is no need to distort what I wrote.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 23, 2018 13:41:21 GMT -5
And look again at how you sidestep the words that Amadan, nighttimer and I were actually referring to and have quoted repeatedly, focusing on other words.
OWN. YOUR. WORDS.
I also don't appreciate your more than implication that Amadan and I are being insincere in our reading of your post.
Seriously, stuff that.
You started your post by saying that Khasshoggi wasn't an American citizen. Was that...just a meaningless throwaway point? Thrown in for laughs? Is it crazy of us to think that when you started your post with that point you felt that it makes a difference in how the U.S. should handle things?
Well? Does it? He's only a greencard holder, resident, etc. Does that make a difference, in your view? Why? And if it doesn't, why start your post with it?
You ended your post by strongly implying (more than implying) that people's outrage was politically motivated, more than implying that actual "dismay" was secondary to the desire to hurt Trump. That was....another throwaway point?
What we are doing is reading what your post actually says. What else do those points mean?
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Post by Amadan on Oct 23, 2018 13:43:56 GMT -5
Those were reasons why we shouldn't go in with guns blazing, not why the murder wasn't morally reprehensible. Please. And you both knew that when you read my list. You're too intelligent not to understand what I was saying. (But of course Trump hatred can blind people to the obvious, so I should take that into consideration.) Nobody suggested we go in with guns blazing. Your Trump-worship is blinding you. You are being dishonest. Here's my prediction: our relationship with Saudi Arabia will not change. No major assets will be frozen, no major deals (with the US) will be scuttled. Trump will make some vague statements about how cutting up journalists is "Terrible, just terrible" and he hopes the responsible parties are brought to justice. Maybe some minor prince will be inconvenienced with frozen accounts or a travel ban, and a couple of people will be arrested, and everyone will know that they were not the responsible parties (or nowhere near the top where the decisions were made). Would you care to wager against that?
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Post by markesq on Oct 23, 2018 13:52:14 GMT -5
I know what c.e. is saying, and I think it's basically putting some distance between Kashoggi and how American he was, and for that reason we should hold off on taking any action until an investigation is done, the same way we would if a Frenchman had been killed in Nigeria. Or something like that.
In some ways I think it'd be a fair and reasonable argument. What grates me about it, though, is that he lived in the US, wrote for a US newspaper, and (I think) some of his kids are American. Other than completing the paperwork, he's about as American as any other immigrant who makes their life here and by trying to make the distinction it truly comes across as if it's a "Meh, foreigner got himself killed in a foreign land" situation.
But, again, to me this is somewhat by the by. My position has always been that Trump won't do a damn thing about it. Given all the evidence we have, I shall spend the afternoon resting on my laurels that, so far and still, I am right.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 23, 2018 13:52:23 GMT -5
As Amadan noted, no one suggested going in with "guns blazing," so you are punching a strawman, c.e..
But wait -- if Khashoggi were an American citizen, instead of a resident greencard holder with American children who worked for an American newspaper, are you saying you think then we should have gone in "guns blazing"?
Indeed, that grates.
(and yes, btw, some of his children are American.)
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Post by celawson on Oct 23, 2018 13:55:40 GMT -5
And look again at how you sidestep the words that Amadan, nighttimer and I were actually referring to and have quoted repeatedly, focusing on other words. OWN. YOUR. WORDS. I also don't appreciate your more than implication that Amadan and I are being insincere in our reading of your post. Seriously, stuff that. You started your post by saying that Khasshoggi wasn't an American citizen. Was that...just a meaningless throwaway point? Thrown in for laughs? Is it crazy of us to think that when you started your post with that point you felt that it makes a difference in how the U.S. should handle things? Well? Does it? He's only a greencard holder, resident, etc. Does that make a difference, in your view? Why? And if it doesn't, why start your post with it? You ended your post by strongly implying (more than implying) that people's outrage was politically motivated, more than implying that actual "dismay" was secondary to the desire to hurt Trump. That was....another throwaway point? What we are doing is reading what your post actually says. What else do those points mean? Yes, the fact that he was a Saudi citizen and not American, and that he was not in the U.S. when this happened and all the rest of the stuff I listed DOES demand a different approach. And all those things listed make it more difficult for us to get the full truth in a timely manner.
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Post by Amadan on Oct 23, 2018 14:02:43 GMT -5
Yes, the fact that he was a Saudi citizen and not American, and that he was not in the U.S. when this happened and all the rest of the stuff I listed DOES demand a different approach. And all those things listed make it more difficult for us to get the full truth in a timely manner. What would you have advocated if he were a U.S. citizen? What if he were just a US permanent resident? What if this had happened in the Saudi Embassy in the US? I don't believe your response would be substantially different.
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Post by celawson on Oct 23, 2018 14:08:52 GMT -5
I know what c.e. is saying, and I think it's basically putting some distance between Kashoggi and how American he was, and for that reason we should hold off on taking any action until an investigation is done, the same way we would if a Frenchman had been killed in Nigeria. Or something like that. In some ways I think it'd be a fair and reasonable argument. What grates me about it, though, is that he lived in the US, wrote for a US newspaper, and (I think) some of his kids are American. Other than completing the paperwork, he's about as American as any other immigrant who makes their life here and by trying to make the distinction it truly comes across as if it's a "Meh, foreigner got himself killed in a foreign land" situation. But, again, to me this is somewhat by the by. My position has always been that Trump won't do a damn thing about it. Given all the evidence we have, I shall spend the afternoon resting on my laurels that, so far and still, I am right. Thank you, Mark, for reading my posts correctly. And I do agree with a lot of what you posted there. I did not mean "meh" at all, simply that it is difficult to get the full picture and make immediate demands when the victim is a Saudi citizen and this didn't happen on our soil. But I still think Trump will do something about this.
Cassandra, as far as owning words: These quotes are from earlier in the thread:
Cassandra said:
Amadan:
Cassandra:
Don:
Cassandra:
I can go on, but I really don't have time. The point is, there is a good chance, if someone went through and examined this thread, that it contains more outrage at how Trump is handling this, and at me saying it's approp that they take time to gather info and do the right thing, than there is at the Saudis. So yes, 'own your words' is good advice and we should all take it. And no, I am not punching a strawman, as the above quotes will show.
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Post by Amadan on Oct 23, 2018 14:14:00 GMT -5
I can go on, but I really don't have time. The point is, there is a good chance, if someone went through and examined this thread, that it contains more outrage at how Trump is handling this, and at me saying it's approp that they take time to gather info and do the right thing, than there is at the Saudis. So yes, 'own your words' is good advice and we should all take it.
You are studiously ignoring the fact that not one of us expressing outrage at Trump's handling of this suggested that we thought the correct handling would be to immediately sever diplomatic relations with SA. The outrage is because Trump's initial response was tepid and equivocal, signaling that he was reluctant to do much of anything, he showed weakness in his meetings with the Saudis, he indicated far too much willingness to give them time to get their story straight and accept whatever they tell him, and has given every indication that he's looking for a way to avoid taking significant action. My wager is still on the table.
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Post by celawson on Oct 23, 2018 14:22:12 GMT -5
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Post by CG Admin on Oct 23, 2018 14:30:43 GMT -5
No one is being particularly consistent here, by my reading, with how they are reading and responding to posts. Well, okay, except for markesq.
Ce did indeed list a bunch of things that "diminshed" Khashoggi's relative importance.
But she then followed up with a "clarification":
So this (from Cass) is not consistent with ce's offered statements:
Whether or not ce has a point with regard to there being more press on this because he was a journalist (I don't think she does), she didn't say he deserved what he got. It's nowhere close to that, actually.
Of course, Cass didn't specifically attribute that to ce, did she? One might infer that ce was the target, however. But one might also allow that Cass was making a larger point directed at the general response out there--somewhat at ce's expense--by being a little hyperbolic.
And it's absolutely true that no one is suggesting "going in guns a-blazing." If anyone were to suggest such a thing as a response to some international crisis, it would probably be me, after all. Though I'd probably say something like "sea of glass."
So everyone can take a step back.
As to respect, sincerity, honesty, and the like, you--all of you--can drop those angles right now. I don't give a shit if you don't respect someone else here, I really don't. You can feel how you want to feel. And I don't give a shit if you doubt their honesty. If you can catch them being hypocritical or the like on the actual site, feel free to show it. But enough with being insulting for the sake of being insulting and with being offended for the sake of being offended.
As to condescension...please. If I got rid of everyone who deals in condescension, Vince would be talking to himself (because I certainly wouldn't be here).
Okay?
All that said, I'm going to note something about ce's list: I've seen a lot of people saying stuff on social media--FB and twitter--that includes absolute untruths. For instance, I've seen posts ranting about this situation that declare Khashoggi WAS a US citizen. And god help anyone who tries to correct that error (or others), because they're immediately slammed like nobody's business with stuff like "oh, I guess it's okay to cut him up then, since he wasn't a US citizen," and there's no coming back from that; if they try to point out that they were just correcting that one error, that they still despise Trump as much as the next person, it falls on death ears. I think that's not right. If someone can't point out an actual error of fact without being beaten to a pulp (figuratively, of course), there's no hope for any sort of rational discussion.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 23, 2018 14:31:04 GMT -5
You know, I'm actually opposed to gambling and never do it (for one thing, one of my loved ones has a gambling addiction). But I'm highly tempted to make a real wager on this, with actual money on the line. I think Amadan's prediction is dead on.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 23, 2018 14:46:02 GMT -5
All that said, I'm going to note something about ce's list: I've seen a lot of people saying stuff on social media--FB and twitter--that includes absolute untruths. For instance, I've seen posts ranting about this situation that declare Khashoggi WAS a US citizen. And god help anyone who tries to correct that error (or others), because they're immediately slammed like nobody's business with stuff like "oh, I guess it's okay to cut him up then, since he wasn't a US citizen," and there's no coming back from that; if they try to point out that they were just correcting that one error, that they still despise Trump as much as the next person, it falls on death ears. I think that's not right. If someone can't point out an actual error of fact without being beaten to a pulp (figuratively, of course), there's no hope for any sort of rational discussion. No one here in this thread or on this site said that Khashoggi was a US citizen. C.e. was not correcting anyone's errors when putting forth that list.
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Post by mikey on Oct 23, 2018 14:57:50 GMT -5
You know, I'm actually opposed to gambling and never do it (for one thing, one of my loved ones has a gambling addiction). But I'm highly tempted to make a real wager on this, with actual money on the line. I think Amadan's prediction is dead on. I doubt Iran will get out of this scott-free.
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