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Post by Christine on Oct 23, 2018 18:12:33 GMT -5
The kindest thing anyone can say is that he's fucking mad.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 23, 2018 18:15:54 GMT -5
It almost sounds like he's reviewing a bad film, doesn't it? "Gigli," perhaps.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 23, 2018 18:21:27 GMT -5
Angela Merkel's got a good start. Would have been swell if the Trump admin hadn't been pussyfooting, pandering and weakly swallowing all the obviously risible nonsense explanations and outright lies coming out of the Saudis since it happened. Too late for that, of course. Instead, Trump and Pompeo, now that the Saudis are being outed and condemned by the media and other governments, will allow the Saudis to put forward a couple of chumps (who may even, to be fair, have been among the 15, but surely won't be high up in the scheme. They'll get their visas revoked, and if they happen to conveniently be people the Sauds can spare, perhaps they'll barbarically dismember them. We'll celebrate by selling them arms. Huzzah! Oh, it would also have helped if Trump hadn't, in the immediate aftermath of the slaughter, while kissing Saudi ass, spent part of a rally cheering on Gianforte's attack on a journalist, saying that people who assaulted journalists were his kind of people. Also be nice if we didn't just smile and accept whatever stooges the Saudis put forwards as responsible and let it go, given that it's pretty fucking obvious Saudi government officials were in it up to the eyeballs. That's for starters, mikey. Hope it helps. I'll have more thoughts as things develop. Perhaps Amadan and nighttimer will also contribute some thoughts.
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Post by celawson on Oct 23, 2018 18:32:42 GMT -5
Wait...you are touting this as an appropriately tough response, c.e.? I'm not sure we even co-exist in the same universe anymore. No, I’m posting the admin’s responses as they are published. The information is still coming in and the response is evolving.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 23, 2018 18:48:30 GMT -5
We could recall our ambassador...
oh, wait, Trump never appointed an ambassador to Saudi Arabia.
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Post by nighttimer on Oct 23, 2018 18:49:11 GMT -5
I have more to say, but not the time to say it. Two years ago, my older brother had a heart attack and died. I'm the one who discovered his body in his apartment which was a hoarder's nightmare. Nine months ago my younger brother had a massive stroke and he has been bouncing back and forth between hospitals and rehabilitation centers and it's kind of fucking with me. I only have two brothers and with one dead and the other seriously disabled, perhaps for life, I've been spending a lot of time in my own head and it's a dark and not-so-nice place. My personal misery aside, I want to make this plain: I have a great deal of respect for celawson. As I've said before, it's not easy to be a Trump supporter on any board that does not have a firm conservative slant. We could not disagree more about Trump, but I have to give her credit for sticking to her guns.
However, I implore you celawson to look at this impartially. Trump's behavior in this mess has been disgraceful. EVERYTHING he blasted Barack Obama for; being weak and indecisive, worrying more about political consequences and the bottom line dollars and cents is what he is doing himself RIGHT NOW. Trump is worried about an arms deal and keeping on the good side of the Saudis than actually finding out how a gruesome trap was sprung on an innocent man who was seeking paperwork to clear the way so he could marry the woman he wanted to be with is an abhorrent act of pure barbarism.
By any standard, Erdogan is a slimy bastard and not to be trusted, let alone believed---without caveats. I'm not sure exactly why the Turks are roasting the Saudis and the Americans so thoughly, but they look considerably more credible than the kingdom and the Trump Administration do. Their story keeps changing while Erdogan is roasting their nuts over a hot fire.
There's no good guys in this story, and even Khashoggi isn't pure as the driven snow, but he's the closest thing we're going to get to a good guy in this weird story.
I have zero reason to believe Trump will force the Saudis to cough up the 411 on what really happened after Khashoggi walked into their consulate. This is yet another reason why the Democrats need to take one or both houses of Congress because we will never get any sort of serious inquiry from the Republican majority.
Take off the Trump Blinders for a minute and then tell me honestly you believe Trump hasn't been the waffling, weak, ineffectual flip-flopper he always sneered at Obama as being.
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Post by Christine on Oct 23, 2018 18:57:00 GMT -5
It almost sounds like he's reviewing a bad film, doesn't it? "Gigli," perhaps. Yes. I seriously cannot tell whether he thinks the cover up of the execution was terrible, or the execution of the cover up was terrible.
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Post by markesq on Oct 24, 2018 8:03:27 GMT -5
It almost sounds like he's reviewing a bad film, doesn't it? "Gigli," perhaps. Yes. I seriously cannot tell whether he thinks the cover up of the execution was terrible, or the execution of the cover up was terrible. I'm waiting for Trump to boast about the great cover-ups he's orchestrated.
"The best cover-ups. Of things so yuge you wouldn't believe it. I'm the best cover-upperer of all time. I mean, you've not found out about them, have you? See, proof right there."
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Post by celawson on Oct 25, 2018 18:12:03 GMT -5
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Post by Deleted on Oct 31, 2018 9:48:48 GMT -5
By the way, any other repercussions? What have I missed? Has the Trump admin found time, in between sending thousands of National Guard troops to the border to quell unarmed poor people a two-month walk away and making sure the alt-right was sufficiently worried about them?
ETA:
This, if true, would seem to be at odds with the Saudi government's [utterly ridiculous on its face] "spontaneous fist-fight" explanation:
Perhaps that will prompt strong action from Trump! Yeah, that's the ticket!
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Post by celawson on Oct 31, 2018 11:10:53 GMT -5
Yes, and this is at odds with the initial story Turkey gave that Khashoggi was tortured first. This is an example of what I mean about this story having many layers and that everyone involved has ulterior motives, and that it is important to get the facts straight then decide what to do. I haven't heard repercussions beyond the 21 revoked visas for some of the Saudis. But Congress is making some moves. Beyond the fact that this stuff is complicated, this is also a tough time to be time-efficient. And, of course the incidents which have occurred in the meantime could be interrupting reporting on this or slowing the administration's decisions. I found this summary of what's been happening, but it's still from days ago. www.defensenews.com/congress/2018/10/24/us-house-bill-would-close-door-on-saudi-arms-sales/
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Post by Deleted on Oct 31, 2018 12:17:08 GMT -5
Oh, I think there's certainly a question with regard to precisely how Khashoggi was killed -- whether he was tortured first, whether he was strangled, etc. I think there's a real question as to the motivations of the Turkish government, too.
What I think is indisputable, however --
(1) Khashoggi was deliberately murdered, with premeditation,
(2) in the Saudi Consulate (meaning the Saudi government surely knew something about it after, and almost certainly before, and likely were behind it),
(3) he was dismembered afterward and his body parts secretly buried to cover up the murder
(4) the reason for his murder was that he wrote things people in the Saudi government didn't like,
(5) the Saudi government lied about what happened, and
(6) the only reason we all know about this is not because of our own government, not because of the Saudi government, but because of the Turkish government and our own much-maligned free press. Otherwise, it would have been buried in the consulate garden along with Khashoggi's dismembered limbs.
Whether he was tortured first or strangled right away, there should be serious repercussions. Either way, he was murdered in the Saudi consulate for ugly political reasons and the Saudi government tried to cover it up.
And please. If our government officials were actually interested in getting to the bottom of this, they could have done so by now. They aren't. They are hoping to bury it and that we'll forget all about it. Taking aside our government's creepily close ties with the Saudis, the Trump family does a lot of business with them. Whether Khashoggi was strangled, tortured, shot, or defenestrated, I have a problem with that.
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Post by Amadan on Oct 31, 2018 13:16:12 GMT -5
Yes, and this is at odds with the initial story Turkey gave that Khashoggi was tortured first. This is an example of what I mean about this story having many layers and that everyone involved has ulterior motives, and that it is important to get the facts straight then decide what to do. I haven't heard repercussions beyond the 21 revoked visas for some of the Saudis. But Congress is making some moves. Beyond the fact that this stuff is complicated, this is also a tough time to be time-efficient. And, of course the incidents which have occurred in the meantime could be interrupting reporting on this or slowing the administration's decisions. I found this summary of what's been happening, but it's still from days ago. www.defensenews.com/congress/2018/10/24/us-house-bill-would-close-door-on-saudi-arms-sales/ How does this very complicated story become more nuanced depending on exactly at what step in the operation Kashoggi was tortured, killed, and cut up, and in what order? Revoking the visas of the suspects whom even the Saudi government has all but admitted are murderers is such a no-brainer that Trump couldn't have found a way around it if he'd wanted to. Where is Trump strongly speaking out and strongly imposing strong consequences, like you strongly asserted a few days ago? LOOK, caravanSQUIRREL!My bet is still on the table.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 9, 2018 11:52:19 GMT -5
So. It's been, what, 40 days since Khashoggi was murdered?
How about those strong consequences?
Say, how about his body? Any sign of that?
*crickets*
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Post by markesq on Nov 9, 2018 12:12:30 GMT -5
Haha! I thought about coming here to say the same thing yesterday.
Crickets indeed....
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