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Post by Deleted on Nov 1, 2018 11:58:01 GMT -5
(I don't know where to put this thread; here seemed as good a place as any.)
The thread below, forwarded by my beloved NeverTrumper Rick Wilson, made my head explode, and really got me wondering -- what does the average pro-life person actually believe should be policy, and what is it they think the average pro-choice person -- and pro-choice politician -- believe should be policy?
The person he's forwarding, Marybeth Glenn, is a pro-life person who will be voting for Democrats in November. In the past, she voted for Republicans, largely because of her pro-life position. She provides a very thoughtful discussion of why she is doing that.
But the thing that made my head explode -- she describes her "pro-life" position and the policies she thinks should be in place and IT IS PRETTY MUCH EXACTLY MY PRO-CHOICE POSITION. More to the point, it's pretty much the position and policies that every pro-choice person and pro-choice politician believes in.
Okay. So she's in favor of the exact position pro-choice Democrats favor -- keep abortion legal. Minimize it to the extent possible via access to birth control and sex education, and providing support to moms so that they aren't driving to abortion by poverty.
EXACTLY what Dems think. And NOT what your typical pro-life politician advocates -- they want to make abortion illegal. Worse, a good many want to cut support for social programs that would help moms and cut places that provide birth control and sex education.
But all her life, she's been voting for pro-life politicians when her actual take on abortion policy is closer to the Dems.
What really made my head explode was that Rick, my dear sensible funny Rick, seems to think that Marybeth Glenn's position will offend Democrats and pro-choice folks. (i.e., "Democrats should try to skip their kneejerk reaction and understand the opportunity"). They seem to think this position would be highly controversial to us. [Insert boggled emoji face here.] Many, many people in the comments hastened to tell Rick and Marybeth; "yo, that's exactly my position and I'm pro-choice! That IS the pro-choice position!"
But it got me wondering -- what exactly is it that pro-life folks like Marybeth (and Rick and Tom Nichols) -- those who favor keeping abortion legal but minimizing it via sound policies that support women -- think pro-choice folks advocate? Do they think we want to drag pregnant women to abortion clinics and talk them into having abortions? Do they think we want to get women pregnant just so they can have abortions? Do they think we want to have abortion parties where women come to drink cocktails and have abortions?
I grok the pro-life people who want abortion to be illegal thinking pro-choice folks are opposed to their position. We are! But those like Marybeth -- what does she think we believe? As far as I can see, we think exactly the same thing. Dem politicians advocate exactly that. So -- ? ? ? ?
ETA:
Scan down the replies to Rick's tweet -- a long line of Dems and pro-choicers respond saying exactly what I just said -- "hey, that's my position! That's what Dems want!")
I agree with every policy and view Marybeth puts forth in that thread. So does every Democrat I personally know.
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Post by prozyan on Nov 1, 2018 12:16:46 GMT -5
Do they think we want to drag pregnant women to abortion clinics and talk them into having abortions? Pretty much, yeah. Abortion as a means of birth control.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 1, 2018 12:24:42 GMT -5
Totes bizarre.
Literally every pro-choice person I know simply wants it to be legal. No one thinks it's awesome. Every pro-choice person and politician I know favors actual non-abortion birth control and sex ed and support for moms - they want abortion to be legal because they know that sometimes unwanted pregnancies are still gonna happen, and that when they do, some women are still going to seek abortions, so its better that abortion be safe and legal. I have never met a human being who didn't think fewer abortions is better.
And we pull our hair out over pro-lifers shutting down birth control and sex ed access, and supporting cuts to programs that support moms, which will lead to MORE abortions, not fewer.
Bizarre.
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Post by prozyan on Nov 1, 2018 12:32:57 GMT -5
Celebrity effect.
Lena Dunham once claimed she wanted an abortion so she could have the experience. Martha Plimpton recently basically bragged about multiple abortions and rated them by quality experience.
Outliers, for sure. But they are the ones that make the headlines and influence the thoughts of the pro-life.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 1, 2018 12:36:50 GMT -5
But I mean, they are WAY outliers, and nowhere near the Dem platform position or the position of 99.99999% of Dems.
That's like my assuming that all pro-choice folks think abortion should be illegal even if the pregnancy will kill the mom. (There may even be a GOP politician or two who advocates this, actually. But I know it isn't mainstream.)
ETA:
Lena Dunham actually backed off that comment, if I recall correctly. Much of that talk, even by the extremists, is hyperbolic, a response to the pro-lifers who want to make it illegal (some even in cases of rape). Lots of them argue that abortion is pro-women because abortion is totally traumatic to women -- whereas in fact, while some women feel may indeed feel traumatized, lots don't--many feel it was their best (or only) choice.
I dislike Lena's rhetoric, but it isn't close to the mainstream view.
And in any event, it's not reflective of the policies Dems advocate. Really, people are voting based on the most extreme shit some flaky celebrity says, and not on what the actual politicians advocate? That's fucked up.
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Post by prozyan on Nov 1, 2018 12:45:17 GMT -5
You are looking at it through your lens.
You, admittedly, look at anyone on the right who isn't railing against Trump at the top of their lungs constantly as being complicit in his actions. That is a wide swath of people and not at all accurate, but that is how you tend to view them. As a monolithic force.
It works the opposite way too. Lena Dunham and Martha Plimpton (and many others) are identified as representing leftist ideals as a whole. So while in reality they have little in common with the moderate democrat, that all get lumped together as some monolithic force.
I lean to the right. Though the party has moved so far to the right I'm not sure I'd even qualify as a moderate republican anymore I still lean to the right. I can see the difference between the rabid Trump supporter and those like myself who don't really agree with or support Trump but don't think he is quite the existential threat to the Union most on the left do. To many on the left since I am not a neverTrumper, there is no difference between the Trump bomber and myself.
Likewise, to many on the right, there is no perceived difference between Lena Dunham and Nancy Pelosi.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 1, 2018 12:51:03 GMT -5
You, admittedly, look at anyone on the right who isn't railing against Trump at the top of their lungs constantly as being complicit in his actions. That is a wide swath of people and not at all accurate, but that is how you tend to view them. As a monolithic force. No. I'm looking at what DONALD TRUMP HIMSELF says and does. I assume that those who continually to actively support him are at least okay with the stuff he says and does. (And I'm looking at what, say, ROY MOORE did and said, and assuming that those who voted for him or supported him are at least okay with it. And so forth down through Mitch McConnell etc. -- I assume that if you support a politician, you are supporting the stuff they say and do -- or at the very least, are willing to give it your tacit blessing because you think you'll get something you want politically by supporting them.) That's not the same thing as pointing to some non-elected official celebrity idiot like Candace Owen or Susan Saranden and assuming all Republicans agree with everything she says. ETA: To note, I do not think that most Trump supporters think the synagogue shooting is totally awesome or agree with the synagogue shooter's motivations. But I do think most of them are at least okay with Trump ranting hourly about the caravan and the crazed sending of thousands of national guardsmen down there and the grotesque advocating of nationalism and condemning of "globalists" (which Trump knows is read by the kooks as "Jews". When I see them screaming "NO! I'M NOT ON BOARD WITH THAT! STOP THAT RHETORIC, MR. POTUS!" that might be another thing. But by and large, I'm not hearing that at all from Trump supporters. They're just...silent.
Ditto, I assume they're okay with the fact that Donald Trump constantly lies because, well, he does lie constantly and yet they still support him. I don't, by and large, hear much condemnation of the lying from Trump supporters.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 1, 2018 13:12:14 GMT -5
To note: If Trump, instead of daily broadcasting inflammatory bullshit about the caravan and globalists, said stuff like this:
...well, I'd feel a lot better. But he avoids that. He condemns the synagogue shooting, yes. (Though he seemingly can't be bothered with the Kroger's shooting...) But he does his damndest to avoid condemning white supremacy in general. All to often, he winks and nods and lets white supremacists think he isn't really all that bothered by them. Fine people. Both sides. I'm a nationalist. Wink. Nudge.
I don't think all Trump supporters are anti-Semitic and racist. Indeed, I know they aren't. But I do think they must be at least okay with Trump's rhetoric -- and his failure to stick a dagger in the white supremacist movement the way Reagan did in that clip.
Again, that is not an assumption that all Trump supporters are good with everything all other people on the fringiest right do. But I think it's reasonable to assume they're okay with what Trump himself does. It's not the same thing.
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Post by prozyan on Nov 1, 2018 13:18:44 GMT -5
To you. Again, it is through your lens of perception. To many on the pro-life side, that statements from Dunham and Plimpton might as well have been spoken by the leadership of the Left.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 1, 2018 13:22:55 GMT -5
To you. Again, it is through your lens of perception. To many on the pro-life side, that statements from Dunham and Plimpton might as well have been spoken by the leadership of the Left. That doesn't make such a "lens of perception" a reasonable or intelligent one. The mere fact that someone sees something in a particular way--or even that many see something in that way, does not, on its own, make it a reasonable point of view. ETA: On the one hand, I suppose it answers my question as to how someone like Marybeth was voting for "pro-life" candidates when in fact her position was that of pro-choice candidates. On the other hand, that means it is quite literally impossible to counter. One cannot possibly control every random human being claiming adherence to a political party and/or policy and force them to stick to the party line. One can only, to some extent, control one's politicians and candidates, via the ballot box and political pressure. But if, no matter what the actual politicians and policies say, some on the right will continue to only pay attention to the kookiest pro-choice celebrity and assume without examination that all pro-choice people think that... well. Literally there is nothing that can be done. We can point them to the policies, and that's about it.
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Post by prozyan on Nov 1, 2018 13:27:45 GMT -5
Are you asking to understand why some people on the right can't recognize the moderate positions of the left or are you asking for "reasonable and intelligent" points of view?
I might be confused as to your original query.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 1, 2018 13:31:50 GMT -5
Are you asking to understand why some people on the right can't recognize the moderate positions of the left or are you asking for "reasonable and intelligent" points of view? I might be confused as to your original query. Fair enough, prozyan. And see the ETA I added above: Any thoughts on what we pro-choice folks can do to convince them that Lena Dunham isn't setting policy? Any way we can get them to look at what the mainstream pro-choice view actually is? It wouldn't convince those who simply want abortion to be illegal, of course. But it would be good to convince the Marybeth Glenns out there that, hey, we actually agree with her, pretty much 100%. (And a lot of us find Lena Dunham unbearable...) (I really do find this mind-blowing and disturbing.)
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Post by prozyan on Nov 1, 2018 13:45:48 GMT -5
Any thoughts on what we pro-choice folks can do to convince them that Lena Dunham isn't setting policy? Any way we can get them to look at what the mainstream pro-choice view actually is? It wouldn't convince those who simply want abortion to be illegal, of course. But it would be good to convince the Marybeth Glenns out there that, hey, we actually agree with her, pretty much 100%. (And a lot of us find Lena Dunham unbearable...) I live in the Permian Basin area of New Mexcio, which is, for all intents and purposes, West Texas. So while I can't and won't attempt to explain the feelings of the right in various parts of the country, I do have a pretty good handle on how the right in this area feel and think. And I think most would agree this area represents what could be considered the meat of the right's base. Anyway, here people see things like De Niro calling the President a fuck on TV, hear Dunham on NPR, etc. They see the wide coverage of celebrities attending left fundraisers and headlining their rallys. It is easy to associate the left at large with Hollywood, in my opinion, much easier than it is to associate the right with them simply because there are virtually no Hollywood celebrities that lean Right. So when these celebrities go on TV or in interviews and say things like Dunham does it gets associated with the left in general. It isn't necessarily logical, but when you have a celebrity spouting off nonsense on a late night show one week then headlining a rally for "X" democrat the next week, it isn't hard to understand how the two get conflated.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 1, 2018 15:35:43 GMT -5
Any thoughts on what we pro-choice folks can do to convince them that Lena Dunham isn't setting policy? Any way we can get them to look at what the mainstream pro-choice view actually is? It wouldn't convince those who simply want abortion to be illegal, of course. But it would be good to convince the Marybeth Glenns out there that, hey, we actually agree with her, pretty much 100%. (And a lot of us find Lena Dunham unbearable...) I live in the Permian Basin area of New Mexcio, which is, for all intents and purposes, West Texas. So while I can't and won't attempt to explain the feelings of the right in various parts of the country, I do have a pretty good handle on how the right in this area feel and think. And I think most would agree this area represents what could be considered the meat of the right's base. Anyway, here people see things like De Niro calling the President a fuck on TV, hear Dunham on NPR, etc. They see the wide coverage of celebrities attending left fundraisers and headlining their rallys. It is easy to associate the left at large with Hollywood, in my opinion, much easier than it is to associate the right with them simply because there are virtually no Hollywood celebrities that lean Right. So when these celebrities go on TV or in interviews and say things like Dunham does it gets associated with the left in general. It isn't necessarily logical, but when you have a celebrity spouting off nonsense on a late night show one week then headlining a rally for "X" democrat the next week, it isn't hard to understand how the two get conflated. I can't really hold any of the few pro-Trump celebs against the right because they are just too whacky and I'm not sure policy beliefs even come into it. I mean, Kanye and Kid Rock...
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Post by prozyan on Nov 1, 2018 15:36:52 GMT -5
Hey now, Kanye ditched the Trump train....
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