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Post by Optimus on Jan 20, 2019 13:13:08 GMT -5
...is what many of the left-leaning press have breathlessly reported in the past two days. www.cnn.com/2019/01/19/us/teens-mock-native-elder-trnd/index.htmlNearly every single thing in that report is a lie. And, it's not just CNN. This was in the NYT, The Guardian, MSNBC, etc. Other videos surfaced this morning with much more footage giving more context to what happened. I didn't comment on it before because I know the far-right and far-left love to distort out-of-context vids and pics in order to craft a distorted narrative showing how awful the other side is. But, it's clear from the full vids that have surfaced that the kids actually didn't go up to the man and "harass and bother" him. They were on the steps of the Lincoln Memorial waiting for their bus, singing their school anthem and then yelling out school cheers, when the man walked up to them from dozens of feet away, and got up in their faces (for reasons unknown, other than some other activists yelling at him to go up to the kids with the MAGA hats). He's the one who got up in that kid's face (who did nothing but smile). Not the other way around. Proof that that's exactly what they were doing (i.e., yelling school cheers) when the dude approached them: They also never (as a group) chanted "build a wall" at the man, though I wouldn't be surprised that maybe one or two kid did on their own. I've not been able to find that in any video that has been posted. Only reports that someone with the Native American activists claimed that she heard them doing that. No actual proof and all of the video evidence disputes her claim. Unfortunately, the majority of people and sites I've seen showing the full context are mostly garbagey far-right outlets. I've seen no corrections from the more far-left outlets who breathlessly spread the false narrative in the first place and I seriously doubt they'll publish any. I don't wanna give ultra-conservative sites any traffic, so I won't site them here, but people can easily google to find the full vids (just be wary of the "news" site you'll most likely wind up on). However, here's a thread (that I noticed Cass has posted on, so I already know her take on this) posted by a local news journalist with a response from one of the students in attendance. Nearly everything the kid says in his statement is backed up by video evidence (all contained in responses in that Twitter thread). Most of the claims of Phillips (which also keep changing the more media outlets he talks to) are debunked by these longer vids with fuller context. Here's an unrolled response in that same thread that shows video backing up nearly everything the kid says: Also video that shows the Black Hebrew Israelites (that's an actual church, apparently), who were telling the kids (e.g., to go "shoot up a school," calling them a "sea of crackers," then making fun of the black student(s) in the crowd) around the time after they yelled at Phillips to go up and confront the kids. Skip to about 1:09:00, but I think Phillips shows up around 1:11:00): www.youtube.com/watch?v=t3EC1_gcr34As everyone here knows, I'm on the left, can't stand Trump, can't stand that people support him, and can't stand hardly anything about the Republican agenda, but I also can't stand the delusionality that exists on the far-left either, and I'm clear-headed and objective enough to be able to recognize when a media narrative is pure BS. More people need to take off their "political party" colored glasses and start looking at the world more skeptically and objectively, or this blind partisanship crap will continue. It's perfectly OK to both be against Trump, his supporters, and everything they stand for and ALSO to realize that most of the narrative around this story has been total fabricated BS.
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Post by Vince524 on Jan 20, 2019 16:16:58 GMT -5
I've seen this unfold. Something told me there was more to it. The kid wasn't 'doing' anything disrespectful. The disrespect was based on the idea that he put himself in the elder's face and stared him down. In fact, that was the opposite of what happened. I think some of the kids were not mocking as much as they were into the drumming.
But the truth of this will probably not get much play.
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Post by Vince524 on Jan 20, 2019 16:20:33 GMT -5
Rep. John Yarmuth:
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Post by celawson on Jan 20, 2019 16:57:34 GMT -5
I’ve been at my daughter’s mock trial tournament at UCLA today, or I would have posted about this. Thank you, Optimus, for being so comprehensive and for your ability to be objective.
I watched an initial video clip yesterday, and even without the context or longer clip or stories, my first reaction was “Where’s the mocking and intimidation?” I was honestly puzzled. I showed it to my husband today and he had no clue about the story and I didn’t set it up, and his first comment was, “Heh, look st the guy in the gray just standing there smiling.” And my husband said it in a sort of complimentary way like, the guy singing was in his face and all he did was stand there and smile.
This poor kid is being called all sorts of terrible things, especially racist. People on Twitter are calling for his expulsion from School and for him to be blacklisted from all potential colleges. I mean REALLY?
I don’t have much time to comment right now but man, I feel like I’m watching an episode of Black Mirror play out right in front of us. This is bad.
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Post by Optimus on Jan 20, 2019 17:59:55 GMT -5
Tim Pool annoys me sometimes, but here he gives a good overview of the video evidence and provides a bit more context in this vid:
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Post by Vince524 on Jan 20, 2019 20:20:39 GMT -5
Saw someone post on Twitter a statement by the kid
As I understand, some people want the kids expelled, and have every college refuse admission. Some are calling for their parents to be fired. And of course, there are the death threats.
All in the name of tolerance and all that jazz.
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Post by celawson on Jan 20, 2019 21:17:31 GMT -5
Do people here see intimidating behavior in the kid in grey? I just don't see it. It looks to me like he's uncomfortable but trying to be polite. And if these kids have been educated like my own daughters (who went to Catholic school K-8th grade then public high school), they've been taught quite a bit about the wrongs done to Native Americans.
I will say this, it's certainly en vogue to go after white males, and things like the Gillette ad, IMO, likely contributed to the ease with which people saw these young men as villains.
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Post by Optimus on Jan 20, 2019 21:36:56 GMT -5
I don't see it either, but I think a lot of people are seeing whatever they want to see when viewing this through the shit-colored glasses of their ideological/political bias. I see a high school kid who is smiling but looks a bit bemused at why some old man walked up to him while beating a drum and loudly yelling a chant in his face. He's probably a bit uncomfortable and unsure about what's going on and how to react to it. Also, casting these kids as a bunch of bigots (other than the MAGA hats*) is somewhat under question when viewing that video of the Black Hebrews (which SPLC says is a hate group, and we all know how the far-left hangs on every word of the SPLC when it comes to their hate group labels) disparaging homosexuals and the crowd of kids all loudly voicing their disapproval at them for saying that. Sure, maybe many of them were hateful bigots but they never did anything hateful or bigoted in those videos, so we have no evidence that they are. We do, however, have video evidence of the Black Hebrews being hateful bigots and Mr. Phillips walking up to the kids and instigating the entire confrontation. *Far too many people have some sort of stupid Pavlovian response to seeing the MAGA hat (probably frothing at the mouth too) and automatically think "racist!" but there are quite a few Trump supporters who are non-white and wear those hats too (compared to Romney, Trump got a higher % of black, hispanic, and asian votes). Why is it only racist when a white person wears it? I see it as a signal that the person most likely has views that are in stark opposition to my own, and my personal opinion is that the person is either likely misinformed and/or ignorant of the relevant facts, but I also concede that there's a chance that the person is, indeed, a hateful, bigoted douchebag. But, I don't make that determination based just on their hat. I make it based on what they say and/or do. But I'm not a mindless, overly emotional, frothing-at-the-mouth Pavlov's dog when I see a red MAGA hat. I can't say the same for a lot of far-leftists.
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Post by celawson on Jan 20, 2019 21:44:18 GMT -5
Why can’t more people be like you, Optimus?
And yes I agree the MAGA hats were a likely trigger for a lot of this.
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Post by Optimus on Jan 20, 2019 22:25:09 GMT -5
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Post by celawson on Jan 20, 2019 22:34:58 GMT -5
Yes it does appear some of the boys were confused. A couple of times you can here them say, “What is happening?”
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Post by Optimus on Jan 20, 2019 23:08:42 GMT -5
Why can’t more people be like you, Optimus? Indeed. If the world were full of more people like me, that would be... ...wait for it... ....wait for it.... .....wait.....for.....it..... Opti-mal.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 21, 2019 13:22:43 GMT -5
This will likely be my only contribution to this thread because I've discussed this topic pretty exhaustively elsewhere and I'm just fucking disgusted and tired. I don't care if you buy it or not. I really fucking don't. But since Opty kinda dragged me in by mentioning he's seen my views, and because no one else has given this perspective, I'll say what they are.
I have watched all the videos of this interaction I've found (to note, watch different views, and you'll catch different things that aren't visible in other videos), and I've read the reason article. I will also note that I didn't want the kids doxed (some have chosen to dox themselves), and I don't want them tarred and feathered. They're kids; kids will sometimes be assholes. However, I DO think the kids were assholes, and I definitely think a teaching moment is in order for them. And their chaperones should be fired.
As for the defense of the MAGA kids being propagated here and elsewhere, I think it is gaslighting at its finest. It's "fault on both sides" at its finest.
What it seems to come down to is this: Five Black Isrealites were obnoxious on a street corner. The kids, rather than moving on, chose to huddle around them and listen, and eventually to yell stuff at them and jump down at them being assholes. If you watch the videos, the kids did not just hold hands and sing school songs. Around 1:09, the MAGA kids start jumping down and being jackasses. The Black Isrealites escalate as well. The whole situation is clearly escalating. Then the Native American group (who are not part of the Black Isrealite group, which I think is quite obvious) came along and put itself between the Black Isrealites and the kids. They don't yell obnoxious stuff at the kids. They just interpose themselves and bang their drums.
Ergo, goes the defense, the kids were totes justified in jeering at the Native Americans, singing mocking Indian chants, etc., because the Black Isrealites they'd been standing around voluntarily listening to for an hour and then yelling at Had Been Mean to Them.
Seriously. What the fuck. Since when does one small group (that you've chosen to listen to and interact with) saying mean things to you and your hundred friends justify you and your hundred friends being jackasses to a third, completely different group that is NOT saying mean things to you?
I actually don't dispute that the Black Isrealites are obnoxious. Yes, they're extremists, and yes, that's what they do. I see them on at least a weekly basis in midtown Manhattan, just as I see whacked Christian extremists yelling that Manhattan ladies in suits all whores and sinners and will go to hell, and other whacked people yelling all kinds of other shit. You know what we Manhattanites do? We roll our eyes and walk past. We don't stand around listening and retaliating with 100 or so of our friends. And we sure as hell don't say "gee, that guy yelled mean stuff about Manhattanites in suits -- I am now totes justified in mocking a group of unrelated Jehovah's witnesses.
If we were just talking about the kids interacting with the Black Isrealites, my chief question would be not so much "why did the kids do that?" as "Why didn't the chaperones drag them away long ago and get them doing sing-alongs or something?" The issue isn't about the kids being rude to the Black Isrealites. The issue is about them e.g., singing mocking faux-Indian chants at a peaceful Native American group headed by an elderly man, a group that was NOT yelling anti-White people stuff.
Allow me to take you into the realm of hypotheticals.
Let us imagine for a moment 100 or so black teenagers wearing "Antifa" t-shirts go to DC on a school trip to participate in an anti-Trump protest. While there, they come across 5 Westboro Baptists standing in front of the Lincoln Memorial spewing their usual crap. The black teenagers do not move on. Instead, they surround the Westboro Baptists and yell back at them for an hour.
Then a small group of peaceful Christians who are clearly not part of the Westboro Baptist group comes along, beating drums and handing out tracts about how Jesus loves us all, etc. Headed by an elderly pastor (who also happens to be a veteran) they interpose themselves between the Westboro Baptists and the Black teenagers (allegedly with the motive of defusing the escalation between the Black teenagers and the Westboro Baptists. The Black teenagers then yell mocking shit and sing songs mocking Christianity at the peaceful Christians.
I'm sure we'd all agree the the Westboro Baptists are extremist assholes. But I doubt any of you would be defending the Black teenagers saying "oh, gee, they were totally justified in taunting the peaceful Christians because of the Westboro Baptists." I can sure as hell bet the MAGA Christian folks wouldn't. And nor, for the record, would I, because the fact that the Westboro Baptists are horrible rude bigots doesn't justify horrible rude bigoted behavior towards someone else.
Like I said, I don't want to tar and feather the kids. I would like to see them, e.g., meet with the Native American group. I'd like them to understand why what they did was disrespectful to them, and why it was not justified by the Black Isrealites behavior. And I'd like to ask -- WHERE. THE FUCK. WERE THE CHAPERONES.
And if it were MY kid, going face to face with the elderly Native American veteran with that smirk, MY kid chanting faux-Indian songs, etc.? He'd be grounded, and I'd be dragging him personally to do some service at a Native American center, giving him a talking-to about respect to the elderly, and about turning a fucking cheek rather than taking insults from one group as permission to be obnoxious to another.
What the fuck do "Christians" even stand for these days, that they are saying "oh, these kids were totes fine?"
I already know I'll convince none of you. I don't intend to participate in discussion here. The only reason I'm posting this is because Opty invoked me, and because the discussion doesn't include my perspective otherwise. Disagree. I honestly don't give a shit.
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Post by Vince524 on Jan 21, 2019 13:56:41 GMT -5
Hey Cass. Sorry you're upset. I am sorry to disagree. 1st off, it's my understanding that the kids were standing there waiting for their bus to come. So that's why they didn't move on.
2nd off, if a group of black teens were standing there and a Native American elderly man came and got in their faces, beating a drum, I think much of the reaction would be reversed. Some are defending the boys would take the other stance. Some who were calling for their heads would defend them.
Do I think the kid in the MAGA hat was smirking and not trying to diffuse the situation. Probably. But he probably didn't know what to make of the situation. And he was approached, and the elder got in his face.
Why is the adult here less accountable? Remember, the elder said the approached him and were chanting Build The Wall. That was a lie.
And yes, what were the Chaperones doing? They may not be able to be fired as many may have been parents that volunteered. May not.
But more troubling is the reaction to instantly brand these kids as racists and dox them, and call for expulsions, colleges to not allow them to ever attend and of course the death threats. And the rush to judgement. Many have said the kids were chanting Built a Wall. They weren't. Took CNN a couple of days to pull that tweet.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 21, 2019 14:28:22 GMT -5
You are totally willing to take the word of the kids that they weren't saying "build that wall" -- but not the word of Mr. Phillips and various bystanders that they were. Have you seen the video of a woman in the crowd chastising the kids? That's floating around on Twitter, too. A lot of stuff is floating around, taking video from various perspectives. Have you watched it, or just read some pieces defending the kids and taken their point of view.
Can you understand every word the kids are yelling in those videos? Have you even watched and listened to all of those videos? The answer to the first question is no. You cannot hear everything the kids are yelling, and I know because I HAVE watched them.( I'll bet the answer to the second is no, too, but I'll give you the benefit of the doubt there for purposes of this.) But you're totally ready to say people saying the kids chanted that are "lying." I can see giving the kids some "I can't tell what they're yelling" benefit of the doubt, but that's it. And that's not what you're doing -- you're saying "the kids say this, the Native Americans and some bystanders say that, and I can't understand every word, so I'm assuming the kids are telling the truth and the others are lying." Yes, very neutral.
But take that aside. You can tell that the kids are singing faux-Indian chants, can you not? You can hear them yelling at Phillips "you can't move him!" and laughing, right?
You are not being neutral, as you seem to think. You are giving 100% benefit of the doubt to the kids, which means casting everyone else as "liars".
They had a whole yuuuuuuuuuge area in which to "wait for a bus". There was absolutely no need to spend that time surrounding a group of 5 street-corner kooks. The chaperones should have pulled them away.
You have no idea what the chaperones are doing, but as with the kids, you're willing to give them the benefit of the doubt entirely. Forget that if the school was sending a group of teenagers down to participate in a political protest, they had an obligation to chaperone them adequately. A single chaperone could have been saying, "come on kids, let's move along." Did you see one doing that?
I'm not "upset." I'm fucking disgusted.
ETA:
To be clear: I think it's a personally reasonable view to say that the media may have given credence to Mr. Phillips and the bystanders regarding things that the kids disputed. They also made a choice, and I have no problem with criticism of them for it.
But IMO, whether the kids were chanting "build that wall!" or not, they behaved badly. Sure, the Black Israelites also behaved badly, but the kids behavior to them isn't what's in question here. Let's say the media behaved badly, too. And I've already said that I'm not on board with those who want to tar and feather the kids (I favor a taking a teaching moment.) And let's give the kids all the benefit of the doubt for anything that isn't explicitly contradicted by the various videos.
Here's the thing: I see enough right on the video, without taking anyone's word for anything, to conclude that the teenagers behaved badly and extremely disrespectfully to the Native Americans, that that behavior was not justified, and that the chaperones were useless and should be canned.
And that's why I'm grossed out by attempts to say the kids were totes justified. This cements their view that racist taunting is fine -- and that if someone taunts them, it's fine to take it out on someone else. That it's fine to be confrontational with an elderly person.
Really? That's the message we want kids to take from this? If I were watching my nieces and nephew being part of this group, that's sure as hell not the message I'd want them to take away.
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