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Post by robeiae on Jan 21, 2019 14:55:11 GMT -5
I think a lot more is being made of this incident than should be. It seems to me that there's plenty of places to find fault here, but--in my view--it's just not all that significant amount of fault. It seems to me that no one involved in this rather inconsequential drama engaged in any sort of violence. No one--from what I've seen--really crossed any lines that aren't crossed routinely whenever there are people demonstrating or otherwise making public "presentations" in areas with many other people. Check out this piece-of-shit article at Slate (shocking, right?): slate.com/news-and-politics/2019/01/maga-teenager-native-american-veteran-harassment-smile.htmlReading that, you'd think the particular kid in question here was the spawn of Satan, that he routinely kicks puppies and spits on old folks. Are we really that far down the rabbit hole where someone's face can be judged to determine not only what they are thinking, but what sort of person they are, top to bottom?
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Post by Deleted on Jan 21, 2019 15:24:42 GMT -5
I think this take (from a conservative, btw) is a reasonable one, fwiw:
It's not that I feel the reason piece brought up no points worth making -- but I think the "oh teh poor innocent angels who only wanted to protest abortion in their MAGA hats in peace were all picked on by teh mean, mean black and Native American people and den teh mean, mean Fake Media!" backlash is preposterous and it's actually bad for the kids.
I'm on team "this is pretty much the chaperone's fault more than anything else. Can their asses (or at least don't let them chaperone). But for the kids' own sake, so that they grow up to be good, decent, thoughtful people, sit them down and explain why people got upset with their share of this, and what it is the Native Americans were trying to do there. Sit them down with Phillips and his people. Let them have a good dialogue."
If they have a good dialogue, I'd love to see some positive coverage of it. And then the media should back off the story.
Seriously, I see this as teaching moment time.
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Post by robeiae on Jan 21, 2019 15:28:46 GMT -5
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Post by cray on Jan 21, 2019 15:34:07 GMT -5
I think a lot more is being of this incident than should be. It seems to me that there's plenty of places to find fault here, but--in my view--it's just not all that significant amount of fault. It seems to me that no one involved in this rather inconsequential drama engaged in any sort of violence. No one--from what I've seen--really crossed any lines that aren't crossed routinely whenever there are people demonstrating or otherwise making public "presentations" in areas with many other people. i agree. (my bold) this incident is just another sad display highlighting the fact that discourse (and thus behavior) in this country is in the toilet and there is one person driving it. unfortunately, those kids (you'd have a hard time convincing me that they were not mocking the older dude) are products of horrific way this president conducts himself. if my kids spoke like that guy, came home with a new lie every day, treated people the way he does, etc. they'd have my foot so far up their ass.....
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Post by Deleted on Jan 21, 2019 15:37:06 GMT -5
Covington Catholic school has school chants that sound like stereotyped Indian war chants? and they thought this was a good time to pull them out? I didn't specifically hear "build the wall" either -- but I heard a lot of incomprehensible yelling. I don't know what they were saying. And I think taking that aside, the kids' behavior was a problem. ETA: That said, I don't disagree with Rob that the whole thing has blown way out of proportion. I'd like the kids to get that teachable moment, and then I'd like the nation to move on to all the other shit. But making them into poor wittle innocent angels...no. That's not good for anybody, including them.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 21, 2019 15:38:06 GMT -5
I think a lot more is being of this incident than should be. It seems to me that there's plenty of places to find fault here, but--in my view--it's just not all that significant amount of fault. It seems to me that no one involved in this rather inconsequential drama engaged in any sort of violence. No one--from what I've seen--really crossed any lines that aren't crossed routinely whenever there are people demonstrating or otherwise making public "presentations" in areas with many other people. i agree. (my bold) this incident is just another sad display highlighting the fact that discourse (and thus behavior) in this country is in the toilet and there is one person driving it. unfortunately, those kids (you'd have a hard time convincing me that they were not mocking the older dude) are products of horrific way this president conducts himself. if my kids spoke like that guy, came home with a new lie every day, treated people the way he does, etc. they'd have my foot so far up their ass..... I hate to agree with cray. It feels so wrong.
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Post by prozyan on Jan 21, 2019 15:55:05 GMT -5
Wow. Teenagers acting like jackasses and treating the elderly with disrespect.
What a terrible state this nation is in that this previously unheard of and unfathomable act from teenagers should now rear its ugly head.....
Hyperbole much?
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Post by Deleted on Jan 21, 2019 16:00:14 GMT -5
Straw man much?
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Post by robeiae on Jan 21, 2019 16:04:01 GMT -5
I would say this (wherein I blame most everyone):
1) The Hebrew Israelites there proved themselves to be a bunch of assholes, who out-assholed everyone else involved, by far.
2) Some of the kids behaved--not so shockingly--like dumbass kids. Frankly, I've seen far worse behavior from crowds of college students, but still, some of the kids did behave badly.
3) The Native American who seems to be at the center of this drama (though I don't think he actually was, at all) could have made better choices, as well. He did move into the crowd, and I'm not sure exactly why.
4) The chaperones could also have done better, though it's not like they allowed a free-for-all that descended into violence.
Still...nothing really happened. There was some name-calling by the Hebrew Israelites, some chanting, some singing, some mocking. Frankly, it's a lot tamer than many other of the big dust-ups that have made the news. No one was beating anyone up, no one was throwing rocks or bottles, no one was constantly screaming horrible things.
It seems to me that it really is the MAGA hat that made this into a Big Deal, that led to the massive coverage and corresponding outrage over a relatively minor moment.
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Post by robeiae on Jan 21, 2019 16:19:16 GMT -5
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Post by prozyan on Jan 21, 2019 16:19:22 GMT -5
You agreed to that statement. Not exactly seeing the strawman in what I said. Teenagers...all teenagers....have been assholes since time immemorial. But these teens are obviously products of the President and are different from the billions of other teens that came before them somehow. So when teenagers go out and act like, shockingly, teenagers it is somehow the fault of Trump. That is the strawman. Rob has it right...this isn't about the kids. It isn't about the elderly. It isn't about protesters acting like fools. Its all about a stupid little MAGA hat.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 21, 2019 16:30:17 GMT -5
No one said teenagers being disrespectful was "unheard of" or "unfathomable." No one said 'the nation is in a terrible state" because of it. Therein lies the strawman, and your own hyperbole.
But fine. I do agree wholeheartedly with cray that Trump's constant ugly, bullying, racist, lying behavior sets a shitty example for kids and has generally led to political discourse becoming far uglier and more degraded. I think it's quite obviously true. I also think there has been a distinct and obvious uptick in public-n-proud racist behavior -- and in defenses of such behavior -- in a way that takes us straight back to the pre-civil rights era.
You see the president jeering at a senator and calling her Pocahontas at an event honoring Navajo Code talkers, you see him defending white nationalists as fine people -- yes, I think that shit has an effect, especially on young people. It must be fine, the president is doing it. If their parents, teachers, etc. don't call them out to say otherwise, if scads of strangers defend Trump doing it and the kids themselves engaging in it, yes, I think that's the impression they walk away with, and yes, I think it's damaging.
If that strikes you as "hyperbole", so be it.
ETA:
And for the record, if a group of teenage girls wearing pink pussy hats did exactly what those boys did, I'd think it was equally obnoxious. It's not just about the MAGA hat.
That said, yeah, the MAGA hat doesn't help, given what the MAGA hat symbolizes to a lot of black people, native americans, women, etc. Watch some MAGA rallies and follow some MAGA folks on Twitter, etc., and perhaps you'll see why.
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Post by nighttimer on Jan 21, 2019 16:49:54 GMT -5
There is an Outrage Industry in this country and it pumps out content all day every day. Videos go viral and folks get all stirred up and pissed off based on the video. Hence the existence of this thread. I think it is important to point out something here. THIS...
...AIN'T THIS.
I know Optimus is gonna go off on the "Left-Wing" media and all that and put on an act that he's the moderate, middle-of-the-road liberal who is so open-minded and fair and balanced that he can see the bad on both sides, but the Far-Left is always worse to him than the Far-Right.
I know celawson is going to weigh in with something about how awful and terrible this all is and how these poor little boys were beat up by the mainstream media. What's new is how celawson is now working in this line about how White males are under siege. Yeah, take that bullshit somewhere else.
Because if you and Optimus and don't care about a 51-year-old White man standing 6'5" and weighing 250 lbs punching out a 12-year-old Black girl and how wrong that was, I really don't give a good goddamn about a bunch of White boys harassing and being harassed? You are so focused on their rights that you have no regard for anyone else's rights.
Today, your president and his vice-president "honored" Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr. by paying a visit to the MLK Memorial in Washington. For all of TWO MINUTES. It's a cheap, disrespectful gesture designed for fools and idiots to point at and say, "Trump honored Dr. King on his holiday." This is a marked improvement over last year where Trump honored Dr. King by going golfing.
Why'ja even bother, Don? We know you give zero fucks about MLK Day. We know you and your party spend your every waking moment trying to undo every good thing Dr. King brought to pass. McDonald's is still doing their 2-for-5 sandwich deal. Take your ass over there and load up on the Big Macs and fish sandwiches like the ones you gave to the Clemson football team last week you cheap fuck.
I don't have the time, interest or energy to get all hyped over a bunch of MAGA-wearing morons in a standoff with Indigenous Americans and Black Israelites. Nobody got hurt (except their feelings), nobody got killed and nobody got arrested.
This is the very definition of a Nothingburger. So why is this even a thing? Besides it gives The Usual Suspects to trot out their usual talking points and get all in their feelings.
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Post by robeiae on Jan 21, 2019 17:00:52 GMT -5
But allowing that some of the kids were acted badly, would you allow that the Hebrew Israelites--who called the kids "incest children," "racists," "crackers," "young Klansmen," and more--were behaving much, much worse, that they were in fact trying hard to provoke the kids?
And in that respect, the kids at least didn't resort to any sort of violence, even if some did respond with mockery.
So if this incident is a thing, why do so many the focus on the kid(s) in the MAGA hat above all else?
Look at this crap from noted assclown Kathy Griffin:
That's got 23,000 likes and nearly 5,000 shares. And to what end? To burn down some kids who behaved badly for a moment? That--imo--is not a consequence of Trump at all. It's a consequence of our internet outrage culture.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 21, 2019 18:28:58 GMT -5
(1) I'm really, really, really familiar with the Black Israelites and their rhetoric. In all seriousness, I go past them at least once a week. Yes, they can be pretty obnoxious, especially if you try to argue with them. Which I never do -- the proper answer to all street corner screamers is to walk on past. Walk on past and ignore them, and from my very considerable experience, they won't bother you. They'll just yell a lot about the Black Jews in Ancient Israel and Egypt and racial injustice. Yell back at them (as some tourists will), and they'll get in your face. They can be assholes, yes, but walk on by, and they won't call you names.
Watch the video. There was lots of rhetoric, and yeah, it wasn't all pretty, but the really ugly stuff kicked in after the kids started interacting with them.
Am I excusing that ugly shit? Am I saying the Black Israelites were swell guys? Of course not. But to note, if the kids hadn't been interacting with them, it wouldn't have gotten there. Again I ask, where were the fucking chaperones?
(2) But take that aside, because, yes, it did get there. Yes, the Black Israelites said some ugly stuff. No dispute here.
But.
(3) How the fuck does that excuse the kid's taunting the Native American guy? How does it excuse the war chants?
I honestly don't see how the fuck the fact that the Black Israelites being ugly excuses anything the kids did. The Native Americans weren't with them -- I think that's obvious. They weren't doing the same thing. They weren't calling the kids crackers. So WTF is with people saying "But the Black Israelites!" as an excuse?
Again I go back to my Westboro Baptist example. The Westboro Baptists are fucking assholes. They say horrible, horrible stuff, often to people in terrible pain (at funerals and such). Presumably no one wants to defend their shit. They're assholes.
But the fact that they are assholes to someone would not then justify that person in being obnoxious to some other, unrelated person or group. They're not then justified in taunting the Salvation Army guy beating his drum and preaching Jesus's love. Not even if the Salvation guy is right there.
Really, I don't get it. How does the Black Israelites assholishness bear on the kid's assholishness to the Native Americans at all?
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