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Post by celawson on Jan 22, 2019 20:46:40 GMT -5
Just like the initial video clips, I’m not going to make judgements about his interview unless I see more of the interview. I personally don’t think, from what I saw in the other clips and longer videos, that he needs to apologize for himself. He did say he wishes they walked away. But again, I’m not going to judge his interview until I actually see it.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 22, 2019 21:25:10 GMT -5
Of course. And seems you're no longer worried about the media and politicians making too big a deal about the incident.
I mean, the Today Show and the White House for acting like a jerk on a field trip. What could be a more appropriate outcome?
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Post by Deleted on Jan 22, 2019 21:29:12 GMT -5
Seems no one wants to answer my question "did you actually watch all the videos people are talking about before make a judgment, or just some selected clips and characterizations?"
I know what my take-away always is when people don't answer questions like that. Feel free to tell me I'm making an incorrect assumption.
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Post by Optimus on Jan 22, 2019 21:36:31 GMT -5
I did, which should be obvious given that I'm the one who posted most of them in this thread (yes, I've watched the hour and a half long vid from the BHIs too). It's why I still think a lot of your takes on this leave me scratching my head.
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Post by Vince524 on Jan 22, 2019 21:46:01 GMT -5
As I understand, Nathan Phillip has also done an interview with CNN where he says the boys were the beasts and the Black Isrealis were the prey. The BI simply wanted to have their say, and the boys should have listened. And he was trying to make peace by getting in their face, and beating the drum.
Do I think the kids were angels or on their best behavior? No. But I think the behavior of all the adults in the picture (Or in the case of the chaperones, not in the picture) was worse.
No, I haven't watched all of the footage as I really don't have the time, but I've seen more than the initial footage.
I'm also seeing reports, but not from any news source I'd call reliable, that Nathan Phillips was never in Vietnam, and that he tried to invade a church today and they had to lock the doors. And now he wants to meet with the kids.
And yeah, the kids being invited to the White House is because this is playing so well. I could see that coming a mile away.
I don't think I can blame Nick Sandman for going on talk shows when so many in the media are calling him such vile names and demanding he be punished as if he'd shot someone on 5th ave.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 22, 2019 21:47:08 GMT -5
If you've watched them, you've earned the right to express a full-throated opinion on them -- though yours leaves me scratching my head, for all the reasons I've stated.
If people haven't watched them...well, I question what formed their opinion, and whether maybe they should reserve some judgment on what is depicted.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 22, 2019 21:51:53 GMT -5
As I understand, Nathan Phillip has also done an interview with CNN where he says the boys were the beasts and the Black Isrealis were the prey. The BI simply wanted to have their say, and the boys should have listened. And he was trying to make peace by getting in their face, and beating the drum. Do I think the kids were angels or on their best behavior? No. But I think the behavior of all the adults in the picture (Or in the case of the chaperones, not in the picture) was worse. No, I haven't watched all of the footage as I really don't have the time, but I've seen more than the initial footage. I'm also seeing reports, but not from any news source I'd call reliable, that Nathan Phillips was never in Vietnam, and that he tried to invade a church today and they had to lock the doors. And now he wants to meet with the kids. And yeah, the kids being invited to the White House is because this is playing so well. I could see that coming a mile away. I don't think I can blame Nick Sandman for going on talk shows when so many in the media are calling him such vile names and demanding he be punished as if he'd shot someone on 5th ave. where are you seeing these reports? Seriously? You're totes happy to accept some smear job on Phillips' and his Vietnam record from what you admit is a dubious source, but you're all down on the Fake Media for replaying an actual clip of an incident without sufficiently chastising the Black Israelites. Vince, I don't know what to say. Except fuck this noise. I'm going to bed.
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Post by Vince524 on Jan 22, 2019 21:56:42 GMT -5
I'm seeing them on twitter, and I put the fact that the sources aren't great because I don't know that they're accurate. I'm not doing a freaking news cast here that I need to vet each thing before I post it. (Which is ironic considering how little much of the media vetted the original version of this story)
I'll post links if they appear from credible sources. For now, that's what's in the skuttlebutt. Although the part about his CNN interview was from David French of National Review. While I'm sure many don't care for his politics, I doubt he'd quote an interview that never happened.
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Post by michaelw on Jan 22, 2019 22:49:06 GMT -5
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Post by Optimus on Jan 22, 2019 23:03:47 GMT -5
Seriously, this school seems to have an issue -- a lot of issues: Oops...
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Post by nighttimer on Jan 22, 2019 23:08:36 GMT -5
don't see how anyone watches that video and just sees kids doing school cheers. And uh, it looks like Covington has some history of turning a blind eye to racist, obnoxious behavior: ETA: See this tweet commenting on the blacface video... My dad was a high school teacher and he on occasion chaperoned kids on trips. He was an easy-going guy with a long tolerance for youthful hijinks and obnoxiousness. No way he would've regarded the behavior at the Native American elder or the blackface shit in that light. Teens can be obnoxious. But we don't all do this shit. I sure didn't. I says a lot that the chaperones, parents, and other adults around them don't seem to be bothered by it. Maybe it would do them some good to see that a large chunk of the world outside their little white enclave thinks it's awful. If the adults around them won't provide a teaching moment, that might be the only way they get one, sad to say. don't see how anyone watches that video and just sees kids doing school cheers. Because at 0:21 of the very first vid I posted in my last post, that's exactly what they're doing and it's quite clear that's what they're doing to anyone viewing it without an agenda. Because, yet again something that is posted possibly out of context can lead to impulsive conclusions that satisfy people's biases...if they let it: www.snopes.com/fact-check/covington-catholic-black-paint/EDITED: However... I can totally see why people might interpret it as "blackface" and in the current zeitgeist the school should stop the kids from painting themselves in that way, even if it is claimed to be related to a school theme and the supposed intent is not racial in nature. In 2019 people should know better. But, from reading the tweet Cass linked above, sounds like there might really be a racial problem there and the school needs to nip that shit in the bud. I don't know for sure what the atmosphere at the school is like. I don't go there and am not from there. But despite the tradition maybe starting as something non-racial, it sounds like perhaps it's taken on a nefarious and grotesque turn. That isn't looking good for the school and they need to stop that stuff immediately and give those kids a few more courses on race history and relations. Look at all the weasel words. Look at this bending over backwards to find a way to excuse and pardon and rationalize for an act of blatant and unequivocal racism as "tradition."
Look at all the "I's" and I'm this and I'm not that and me, me, ME! Look at how fair and open-minded and free of ideological partisanship bias I am. Look at how far I can stick my head up my own ass. Look at how certain and sure and positive our own Liberal Jesus is that he's got it right and anyone who doesn't see it exactly the way he does is wrong and biased and a far-left loony tune pushing an agenda. Who can't see how the MAGA Mob were just a bunch of sweet little boys who were caught up in a situation not of their creation and certainly none of their fault? It was those nasty Black Israelites bigots and that dumb-ass Injun who got up in the faces of those sweet little boys and created a scene.
How fucking stupid do you have to be to buy that dogshit? When something is wrong you can't call it right. When something is bad you can't make it good. When a White Person puts on blackface it is racist and it always has been and always will be. Even Megyn Fuckin' Kelly had to get broken off over her attempted defense of blackface. Or as Optimus put it himself: "...that's exactly what they're doing and it's quite clear that's what they're doing to anyone viewing it without an agenda."Blackface is racist. Always has been. Always will be and you can't excuse it or make a case for it or rationalize it or justify it or wave it away as no big thing. This isn't White boys being White boys. This is Racism and racism isn't just burning crosses and white hoods or MAGA hats. It's also what White people think they can get away and get out their hatred, contempt and mockery of Black people. Go ahead and try to. I'll be right here to call those little assholes of Covington Catholic little asshole racists with no sense of history, no respect, and poorly-raised brats by parents who are just as fucked as their kids. Any White kid who doesn't know what the harm in wearing blackface is stupid. Any White parent who never told their kids what the harm in wearing blackface is fucking stupid and likely a lifelong, ignorant racist. Apologists and enablers and cowards who brag about their sterling standards and boast of their uncompromised character are worse than the little shits of Covington Catholic. That means you, Optimus. You've always been an apologist and and enabler of bigots and racists. Now you've lowered and debased your supposed "liberalism" by being a coward because you've got your own agenda to push. You're the worst sort of White "liberal." You're that sort of White liberal even MLK eventually gave up as useless. Always touting your resume and credentials of what a "liberal" you are when all you are is an rusty antique of a bygone era of politics. The Great Society and LBJ and Camelot and JFK and the New Deal and FDR are dead and gone and over and so are you with your played-out moderate politics and craven lack of principles. It's 2019 and you're trying to rationalize racism. Buy a fucking calendar.
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Post by Optimus on Jan 22, 2019 23:19:38 GMT -5
Yes, but the reporting was based on earlier exaggerations made by Phillips. He said he was a veteran who served in "Vietnam times," which to me sounds like a weasle-wordy way of trying to give a false impression that he's a Vietnam Vet, without going through with the full bald-faced lie. And now Indian Country have quietly corrected a story today that they wrote over a decade ago claiming that he was a Vietnam vet: The bolded part is what they had to change. Pardon me if I'm also dubious of his maudlin story of how he was spit on while in uniform "coming back to the US." Given this misrepresentation as well as his other risible delusions about what (didn't) happen at Lincoln Memorial last week, nothing about this opportunistic grifter or anything he says strikes me as credible anymore. Yes, some of the kids acted like assholes, some of them didn't. The BHI were certainly the biggest bigots and racist assholes there. And Phillips made the entire situation worse despite his claims that he was helping. I don't think anyone in this situation is blameless, but the kids are getting what I feel is a disproportionate amount of the hate and vitriol compared to the other two parties involved because "leftists gonna leftist" or something.
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Post by michaelw on Jan 22, 2019 23:32:03 GMT -5
The bolded part is what they had to change. Pardon me if I'm also dubious of his maudlin story of how he was spit on while in uniform "coming back to the US." Given this misrepresentation as well as his other risible delusions about what (didn't) happen at Lincoln Memorial last week, nothing about this opportunistic grifter or anything he says strikes me as credible anymore. Would be funny if we had a video of the spitting incident. Oh wait, here we are.
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Post by Optimus on Jan 22, 2019 23:42:01 GMT -5
Look at all the weasel words. Look at this bending over backwards to find a way to excuse and pardon and rationalize for an act of blatant and unequivocal racism as "tradition." They're not weasel words. See, unlike some people out there, I actually try to be precise and intellectually honest in my posts and arguments. If I'd said, "I can see why people will interpret...," this would grammatically imply that all people will definitely see these kids as minstreling, black-face loving racists. However, that's not true. Some might. Some might not. There are many who do. There are many who don't. Including some POC people out there. Like this black guy: And this brown guy: Just two examples but there definitely are more. Despite what you think, nightimer, not every POC thinks like you (thank God) and that fact makes me more hopeful for the future than I probably should be. That's why I try to word things to express the fact that not everyone is likely to agree with a point I'm making or issue I'm discussing. Because, you know, people "might" have different opinions (that I might or might not agree with, just like they might or might not agree with mine). Another reason my words were not weasel words is because, believe it or not, sports fans at sporting events often dress up in ridiculous face and body paint, with no racist intentions/motivations behind said paint at all. Because "sports." Like here: Ugh, those disgusting bigots are obviously in "Smurf face." Nevermind, let's move on. How about this one? Oh, shit...that one's kind of black-faceish, wasn't it? You know, because the paint's black and it's on some of their faces. Based on the full context provided in this picture, this was obviously taken at a klan rally. My mistake! Um...okay...how about this one? Oh, fuck! That one's definitely intentional black face, right? I'm sure they were on their way to oppress some POC when this was taken, probably making a game of thinking up new microaggressions while they were waiting on the cops to show up that they just called on a black family they saw innocently grilling hamburgers in a public park or something. I really gotta get more "woke" about how all this stuff works. If not, I'm sure somebody, somewhere out there who mindlessly perceives the world as if it's one big, neverending racist hell-scape because "whitey always bad" will come along with their bloviating hot take to set all us privileged white devils straight. You don't happen to know anyone who likes to breathlessly, incessantly, thoughtlessly, uncritically race-bait like that, do you? Asking for a friend.
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Post by robeiae on Jan 23, 2019 9:42:26 GMT -5
Yep, the kids sure did learn something from all this. They can act like jackasses on a field trip, and there will be no repurcussions (other than going to the White House and ending up on the Today Show). You postulated this might be a "teaching moment" early on. But I ask you, how can what began as a nationwide public pillorying lead to such a moment, especially when it becomes clear that the pillorying was based on--at the very least--less than complete information? And in my view, that pillorying is by far the most important issue in all of this. We--as a society--are far too eager to do this. Maybe we've always been that way, but it's certainly the case that the internet and social media has provided more opportunity--and a much, much larger reach--than ever before. And to make matters worse, because those doing the pillorying are not members of a traditional community, there are pretty much no repercussions for their actions when they go too far. To be fair, some such pillorying is in response to people seeking attention on the internet/social media, and honestly my opinion in such cases is that they probably deserve what they get, more often than not. But this is not that. These kids aren't the ones who threw up a video, begging for attention. Someone else did it, with a short clip to make them look as bad as possible. And that was quickly shared (apparently with the help of a network of bots), pushing it into viral status, with every self-righteous internet "activist" giving their two cents, which included calls to dox the kids, despite them being kids who could not even be accused of committing a crime, and of course death threats and the like (to say nothing of all the name-calling and insults). You know, if I wanted to summon one of the en vogue terms I'd note that the widespread initial criticism of the kids is simply a kind of cyber-bullying, the kind that can and has led younger people to do drastic and horrible things.
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