|
Post by nighttimer on Feb 7, 2019 19:08:26 GMT -5
Yeaaahh...Fairfax is in real trouble. His accuser has made a statement, it's quite coherent, and under the rubric of "believe all survivors" he doesn't have a lot of wiggle room, given that he's admitted to the encounter, if not the assault. More on his accuser: www.scrippscollege.edu/academics/faculty/profile/vanessa-tysonA tenured professor with multiple advanced degrees, this is not someone who lacks credibility in my view (not unlike Christine Ford).
Fairfax should resign. Right after Brent Kavanaugh and Trump do.
We have all the proof ever needed that White liberals can be and are no less willing to clown Black people than the worst White conservative. That said, it makes no political sense to dump three Democrats to elevate a Republican. Not for the sake of a meaningless feel-good gesture.
The ultimate decision belongs to the people of Virginia, but strip out the emotion and look at it practical. It is easier for Black Democrats to extract better policies and programs from compromised Democratic leaders than it is from a Republican nobody voted for as their governor.
Political reality takes precedence over purity tests. Fuck purity.
|
|
|
Post by robeiae on Feb 7, 2019 19:57:21 GMT -5
Whether or not someone committed sexual assault isn't some sort of purity test, and if Fairfax gets dumped, it won't be a "feel good gesture." You want to pretend that Fairfax is a victim of a "smear job," despite there being no evidence of such, knock yourself out. Me, I think it looks pretty bleak for him, given the apparently strong credibility of his accuser. He can hold his ground, to be sure, but if he does, he'll do a lot of damage to the Democratic Party in Virginia, imo.
As to the other two, I don't think Herring should step down. As I said, I'd like to think his apology and regret are sincere. Northam, however, is coming across like an ass, and he's getting heat from just about every direction. He may be unable to effectively lead, at this point in time.
|
|
|
Post by nighttimer on Feb 8, 2019 12:17:51 GMT -5
Whether or not someone committed sexual assault isn't some sort of purity test, and if Fairfax gets dumped, it won't be a "feel good gesture." You want to pretend that Fairfax is a victim of a "smear job," despite there being no evidence of such, knock yourself out. I feel zero need to prove Lt. Governor Fairfax is the victim of a smear job to you. Unlike you, I am not so naive as to believe it is simply a coincidence that the same obscure right-wing website, Big League Politics, which exposed Gov. Northam's blackface photo then turns around and discovers the sexual assault claim levied against Fairfax.
Unlike you, I consider both the timing of the sequence of events following Northam's outing and the hair-on-fire hysteria by the Right after his abortion remarks which you labeled "infanticide." Then and only then did Big League Politics sharpen the knives as they cut open the top two Democrats in the Virginia statehouse. Unlike you, I question the source of these revelations as much as you question Northam and Fairfax's fitness to hold office.
Gullible liberals and cynical conservatives can throw the first stone at Northam, Fairfax and Attorney General Mark Herring, who also has his own shameful history in blackface, but I'm not about to join their lynch mob mentality. Not when it's clear Big League Politics is operating with an agenda and its not for fighting the good fight for journalism, but to pull off a slow-motion coup d'etat by kneecapping Democrats for the kind of shit Republicans rationalize away.
Don't believe the hype. Or do. I reserve the right not to. You be you.
Please. There is nothing in your history to indicate you give a crap about what damage is done to the Democratic Party in Virginia.
An unproven accusation remains one until it is proven. Fairfax has not been charged, arrested, or convicted of anything. What happened between him his accuser may or may not have a mutually consensual sexual act. We don't know enough to say either way.
What I do know is when I see the same conservatives who sneered their ridicule at the #Me Too movement are now weaponizing it to take down liberals. That's understandable. Bad behavior by men against women knows no party allegiance. Simply put, for the conservatives who decried how Brent Kavanaugh's Supreme Court nomination was nearly sunk by his past acts as the Democratic minority on the Senate Judiciary Committee ripped into him over his treatment of Dr. Ford (and no less than two of them used it as springboard for a 2020 presidential run with a third in Amy Kloubuchar likely to follow), what is enfolding in Virginia must be going down the throats of Kavanaugh supporters like a fine wine.
But that's not a reason to throw Fairfax to the wolves. Not until something is proven because unlike Kavanaugh, there's little to nothing to support either party's version of events. Vanessa Tyson may be a paragon of truth and Justin Fairfax a scurrilous misogynist and liar. However, even in the era of #Me Too and the rise of a social media machine which runs on the oil of scandal and sleaze, the benefit of the doubt is still split between the accuser and the accused.
Oh, I agree Northam is coming across as an ass. Whomever crafted his "explanation/apology" should have been fired on the spot. He looks like a complete doofus and the gas in his leadership tank is damn near running on empty...
That said, I would rather ride and die with an ass like Northam than with the Republican asshole waiting in the wings should Fairfax and Herring join Northam on the scrap heap. I'm thinking tactically and strategically instead of emotionally and while there are many on both sides crying for Virginia's Three Stooges to quit, I don't see the upside. Better the devils you know who might still do some good to make up for their bad than a devil who will happily go about undoing it in the way Donald rump has tried to undo Barack Obama's presidency.
Being unable to effectively lead doesn't seem to have deterred any Donald Trump supporter in the least.
|
|
|
Post by Vince524 on Feb 8, 2019 13:31:48 GMT -5
I think NT is correct in so far as this stuff coming out now is an indication that someone went looking for dirt where they wouldn't have if not for political stuff. That's fair.
The question is if they planted the dirt or was it already there.
The Northam pics appeared in his yearbook on his page. His remarks were, I'm sorry to it's not me. His credibility there is pretty bad. I'd be more comfortable if he'd just owned up to it and said sorry. Voters can decide if he was worthy in the next election for themselves. They still can.
Fairfax is different. On the one hand, if the allegation is true, then he should be removed from office. (And more) if it's not true, then it's a smear.
It's a little hard to compare to the Kavanaugh allegations. Most of those turned out to be false. Ford is really the credible one. Credible in that there's no evidence she was actively lying. There is reason to doubt her story. Her narrative changed. Kavanaugh denied being at the party and nobody named can place him there.
There's no doubt something happened between Fairfax and Tyson. She's credible. It's a he said, she said narrative and credibility matters. But I don't know any reason to question either of them. She hasn't filed a civil suit or pressed charges, so how does one test the allegation here?
It's also worth noting one other difference. Kavanaugh was being considered for an appointment. Fairfax has his job and would only get the promotion if Northam resigns.
I think it's fair to ask at what point does an allegation that isn't provable take things away from someone.
Herring? He's admitting to what he did. His reasons make it sound like it was just stupidity and insensitivity. Not cool, but he was 19. (Not a little kid, but still young enough to get away with the young and dumb excuse to a certain extent.
I don't see grounds in any of these cases that they have to be removed. It's fine to decide to decide in the next election not to vote for them.
|
|
|
Post by robeiae on Feb 8, 2019 17:16:48 GMT -5
|
|
|
Post by markesq on Feb 8, 2019 17:37:23 GMT -5
Hey, I was at Duke then!
I didn't see nuthin.
|
|
|
Post by robeiae on Feb 8, 2019 22:45:26 GMT -5
|
|
|
Post by robeiae on Feb 9, 2019 8:20:25 GMT -5
I think NT is correct in so far as this stuff coming out now is an indication that someone went looking for dirt where they wouldn't have if not for political stuff. That's fair. The question is if they planted the dirt or was it already there. Well sure, a highly partisan right-wing site ran the initial story, and I would guess it did so for two obvious reasons: 1) the accused is a powerful Dem pol and 2) it was a really BIG story in the moment because it looked like the Va governor might step down. But that reality--the timing and the politics--doesn't automatically make it a "smear job." Ford--in accusing Kavanaugh--initially went through Dem politicians, and she did it when Kavanaugh looked likely to be Trump's SC choice. Those same two things--timing and politics--didn't make her story a "smear job" either, despite a good chunk of people on the Right arguing that such was the case. What matters is your second point. And there is no evidence that this story was manufactured by Big League Politics or by anyone else. None. Zero. Nada. Zilch. The evidence says exactly the opposite because: 1) She went to WaPo with her story long before it ended up on Big League Politics, long before Northam's problems began. 2) Fairfax has admitted to the encounter, so we know they were together. 3) She did, in fact, tell other people about the assault long before it broke as a story: I mean, I guess it's possible that Tyson is some sort of master manipulator who is out to get Fairfax for unknown reasons, but that seems like a pretty big stretch at this point.
|
|
|
Post by nighttimer on Feb 9, 2019 13:55:57 GMT -5
I think NT is correct in so far as this stuff coming out now is an indication that someone went looking for dirt where they wouldn't have if not for political stuff. That's fair. The question is if they planted the dirt or was it already there. Well sure, a highly partisan right-wing site ran the initial story, and I would guess it did so for two obvious reasons: 1) the accused is a powerful Dem pol and 2) it was a really BIG story in the moment because it looked like the Va governor might step down. But that reality--the timing and the politics--doesn't automatically make it a "smear job." Ford--in accusing Kavanaugh--initially went through Dem politicians, and she did it when Kavanaugh looked likely to be Trump's SC choice. Those same two things--timing and politics--didn't make her story a "smear job" either, despite a good chunk of people on the Right arguing that such was the case. What matters is your second point. And there is no evidence that this story was manufactured by Big League Politics or by anyone else. None. Zero. Nada. Zilch. The evidence says exactly the opposite because: 1) She went to WaPo with her story long before it ended up on Big League Politics, long before Northam's problems began. 2) Fairfax has admitted to the encounter, so we know they were together. 3) She did, in fact, tell other people about the assault long before it broke as a story: I mean, I guess it's possible that Tyson is some sort of master manipulator who is out to get Fairfax for unknown reasons, but that seems like a pretty big stretch at this point. I don't know what your day job is, but I'm certain you're not a district attorney. Take this shit to a grand jury and you'd never get an indictment. The question is not whether Fairfax and Tyson had a sexual encounter. They have both said they did. The question is was the sex consensual? The devil is in the details in a story like this. As regards the second accuser, we'll see if more facts emerge and whether or not Fairfax resigns. The hue and cry for him to do so is becoming too loud for him to ignore and tough it out.
|
|
|
Post by robeiae on Feb 9, 2019 14:09:25 GMT -5
Lol. Nowhere have I argued or even suggested that Fairfax should be indicted. Your day job obviously doesn't involve reading for content. Arguing for such a thing would be as stupid as arguing that Kavanaugh should have been indicted, based on Ford's accusations. Of course, this is something that many people on the Left did, people who are now silent or are now arguing that there's not enough evidence against Fairfax. And of course the reverse is true: many people on the Right who are now screaming for Fairfax to step down argued exactly the opposite in the case of Kavanaugh.
Luckily for me, I'm in the same place for both situations:
1) I think Tyson--and Watson, now--are quite credible, just as I thought Ford was quite credible. 2) I think the right thing to do is for Fairfax to step down, just as I thought the right thing for Kavanaugh (or Trump) to do was to withdraw from consideration. 3) But I know Fairfax can't be forced to resign, just as I knew that Kavanaugh couldn't be forced to withdraw (or Trump forced to withdraw him). 4) And in that respect, the Repubs in the Senate had a chance to do the right thing--in my view--and failed. And if Fairfax refuses to step down, the voters in Virginia will have a similar opportunity in a few years.
|
|
|
Post by nighttimer on Feb 9, 2019 14:55:05 GMT -5
Lol. Nowhere have I argued or even suggested that Fairfax should be indicted. Your day job obviously doesn't involve reading for content. Not anymore, but I haven't forgotten how to. What's laugh out loud funny is you talking about "content" when you accused Northam of endorsing infanticide, when he definitely did not.
Now there's an lapse in logic desperately in need of a retraction.
|
|
|
Post by Vince524 on Feb 10, 2019 12:58:00 GMT -5
|
|
|
Post by robeiae on Feb 10, 2019 13:07:02 GMT -5
As was the case with Kavanaugh, I don't think a full investigation by the FBI into these claims is warranted. The women have said their piece, there's little chance of criminal charges at this point in time, so what't the point? Fairfax isn't going to be exonerated by an investigation, either.
|
|
|
Post by robeiae on Feb 10, 2019 13:11:04 GMT -5
|
|
|
Post by Vince524 on Feb 10, 2019 13:13:17 GMT -5
As was the case with Kavanaugh, I don't think a full investigation by the FBI into these claims is warranted. The women have said their piece, there's little chance of criminal charges at this point in time, so what't the point? Fairfax isn't going to be exonerated by an investigation, either. Unless there was a smoking gun, which is unlikely, you're right. People will decide they either do believe the charges or not. Some will be thoughtful, but I think most thoughtful people will be willing to say they're not sure. Some will decide it's true because 'believe all women' others will assume it's a lie because 'women lie' or whatever their take is. Some it'll come down to politics. He's a black democrat, so that'll be proof it's true for some, proof it's false for others.
|
|