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Post by mikey on Mar 22, 2019 17:36:08 GMT -5
I see you've heard the Mueller report is in.
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Post by nighttimer on Mar 22, 2019 17:50:31 GMT -5
Is it me, or the D's running hard to the left? I feel as if they see Trump and assume he'll be easy prey, so they just need to win the hard left to get the nomination. Nobody is even trying as far as I can see to appeal to the middle.
It's the second one, imo. The far left is where the money is right now, where the attention is. It's dangerous to not try to appease the far left right now (happened last cycle with the Repubs and the far right). Hey. Guys? Guys?? Yoo-hoo! Would you puh-leeze get over yourselves your angst and bullshit talking points about having to "appease" the far Left and take a look at a fucking calendar? Today, is March 22, 2019. The Iowa Caucuses aren't until February 3, 2020. That is 318 days away. And guess what? Ain't nobody tryin' to appeal to the motherfucking middle because the middle ain't payin' attention to who's running yet. Nobody but the hyper-political and hyper-partisan, and you two gentlemen are BOTH. Just like me and just like everyone else posting on this board in this thread, so stop playin'. The only way any Democrat in March 2019 even gets to February 2020 is by appealing to their party's activists because they are the ones that matter. Sorry, but right now the so-called "middle" don't matter. They really don't. They aren't the ones writing a check to keep a Tulsi Gabbard, John Hickenlooper or Pete Buttigieg afloat through the rest of the year. Amy and Kirsten and Cory and Kamala have a smidge more name recognition, but not nearly enough to stand out from the pack. Bernie and Joe ( when he eventually stops farting around and does what we all know he's gonna do) don't have that problem as they're already known quantities and already loved or hated for it. The rest of them will be too soon enough. Any political strategist worth the job title will tell you in the primaries you run to the extremes and in the general you run for the center. Here's a good reason why that makes sense. Most of the Motherfucking Middle don't even know the names of every one of the 14 declared Democrats and don't you fuckin' lie to me and cheat by looking them up. YOU. DON'T. KNOW. Nothin' wrong with that. You're both smarter than the average bear and Democrat too, but off the top of your head, name all the Republicans who made it to the first debate stage. I bet you can't. I do. Because I'm a politics junkie and I want to know this useless information. But it's too soon to act on any of it. I'm not hyped by anybody who's declared so far. My far-Left vote is totally up for grabs. Mostly, because if the Muller Report that finally got turned in today doesn't flush Donald Trump away like the piece of shit he is, we'll have to do it ourselves in November 2020. Why should anyone be trying to appease the middle now? They aren't paying attention and they damn sure ain't writing no big, fat checks, so fuck 'em. They'll be there. Where else do they have to go? Trump? Don't make me laugh. Or go ahead and try to. Trump is the far right's wet dream, not the sacred savior of the mushy, moderate middle, so if they want to roll with fo' mo' years of the Pussygrabber-In-Charge, they can go right the fuck on and then be sure to hold hands and jump off the highest cliff they can find because they're stupid and should not breed. Stay in your lane, Mr. and Mrs. Middle. It's not always about catering to you all the time. You can't be first all the damn time.
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Post by nighttimer on Mar 22, 2019 18:21:58 GMT -5
Of course you take it that I won't respond to reasonable arguments. Of course I will. But no, I'm not going to respond to insults. We all have our own coping mechanisms, and mine has now become don't respond to insulting posts that are personal. I will respond to cogent arguments within the constraints I will have with internet and time while in Europe. I see it's ok that YOU can have constraints while traveling, but not me. So yes, I think putting me on ignore is probably a good idea for both of us. So thank you.
I have mulled that over, and the only explanation I can come up with is that their better judgement and their perspective of the greater good and the macro good for our country is overshadowed by their Trump hatred and their need to be popular. And these days, especially on social media, it's very difficult to be popular when you support Trump.
I don't consider Kristol or Tom Nichols or Jennifer Rubin either wise or Republican anymore. They aren't objective enough. Jonah Goldberg is an example of someone who has been anti-Trump but who has a level head, is a great writer, and who gives Trump credit on occasion, when he deserves it. Of course, he criticizes him a ton, but I do read those criticisms and I take them to heart because he's wise. Those others I mentioned...not so much.
What about John McCain? Was he unwise? He's not a Republican anymore, but he was. Unlike Trump who was a Democrat most of his life until he found a political party that was intellectually bankrupt and morally vapid ripe to be taken over by a reality TV show huckster. Was a war hero who spent five years of hell on earth in the Hanoi Hilton unwise RINO's to you, celawson? How do you rationalize Donald Trump---a coward who took five deferments to avoid going to war talking all this SHIT about a man who served his country? Since Jonah Goldberg is in your opinion "wise" and you take what he says to heart, what did he have to say about Trump v. McCain after he died? The Republican Party lost with John McCain as their standard-bearer in 2008 and won with Donald Trump in 2016, and since all Trump supporters despise "losers" they can find a way to rationalize their support for a coward and the scorn of a hero. I wonder how such people can sleep. I also wonder how folks on the Right can snark and throw shit at the Left for not supporting Trump, but choosing to show respect for McCain. Jimmy Carter ain't taking shots at John McCain. Ronald "The 11th Commandment" Reagan wouldn't. Neither would George H.W. Bush. George Bush, Jr. hasn't. Barack Obama hasn't. Hell, he and Bush spoke at the funeral Trump wasn't even invited to. But Donald Trump is taking shots at John McCain. Donald Trump is making life even harder and tougher for Cindy McCain, Meghan McCann, Bridget McCain and the rest of his family and friends. Not the Libs, not the Left, not The Fake News, not Hillary and Bill, not AOC and not the Far Left. It's YOUR boy who's taking a big, smelly SHIT all over a better man than he could ever be because YOUR boy is a small, petty, jealous COWARD. There's your Colline Gate annoyance since Cass has sent you to The Sunken Place and Amadan has gone M.I.A. Enjoy your trip to Italy and as a going-away present, here's some no-fake news for ya. Unlike Cassandra, I won't put you on Ignore. I've only put one person on this board on "Ignore," but I've since decided unless you're an overt racist or a complete moron, I'm not going to put anyone in the Ignore Penalty Box. I figure going through life as a racist moron is a bigger shame than denying someone the pleasure of my engagement. Oh, and speaking of racist morons, how is Donald Trump doing now that the Mueller Report has been finished and he's not recommending any new indictments? I bet Trump's asshole just unpuckered for the first time in MONTHS. It's dinnertime. I'll get back to the rest of your post once I've satiated my hunger. Have another glass of vino for me when you get to the land of wine, pasta and old Mafia dons. Salute!
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Post by prozyan on Mar 22, 2019 21:07:26 GMT -5
You're right - there's no contest. And the party that's extreme is the one that: 1) wants to abolish the electoral college 2) wants federally funded single payer health care while abolishing the insurance industry 3) wants to implement The Green New Deal and well, I can't think of any recent policy idea that is further left than that one, not to mention it will bankrupt the country and stomp on our freedoms. (oh, wait, I already said leftist sorry) 4)wants to pack the supreme court 5)cheers and lights up buildings for legislation allowing abortion on demand up to birth (when for years and currently, the majority of the country is against late term abortions unless the life of the mother is at stake - see multiple Gallup polls) 6) wants to abolish ICE and open our borders (note - 76 THOUSAND people tried to cross last MONTH, the most in 12 years, we can't even detain people due to everything is full to overflowing but hey no crisis.) 7) wants to give illegal aliens voting rights 8) wants to double the minimum wage 9) wants guaranteed universal basic income 10)wants to give free college tuition 11)wants government takeover of corporate boards 12)attacks and ridicules moderate and reasonable possible candidates like Howard Schultz because they aren't subscribing to leftist orthodoxy I'd like to respond to this as someone who considers himself to be fairly to the right. Though I have to admit with the relative shifting of the major parties I think I'd be considered extremely centrist currently. Before the list I will say I do think both parties have shifted toward their extremes...the right has moved further right and the left has moved further to the left. I'm not going to get into which side has become more extreme or any of that nonsense because that argument lies with which side of the aisle you fall on. Naturally you as an individual are going to feel the other party has moved to a greater degree. I also think Trump is a walking dumpster fire, which is infuriating because I find that I don't disagree with all his ideas. I do think we need greater border security, I do think trade with CHINA needed to be addressed. But by God, I don't think Trump could have done a worse job of handling either situation if he were literally trying to fuck it up. Sure, we need increased border security, but let's focus in on a 100% physical barrier solution and dig in on that. Sure, we need to address trade issues with CHINA but lets start trade fights with Canada, Mexico, and the EU while we're at it. And let us also ignore the fact that the things we were fighting with Mexico and Canada about were things both nations said we could have had for the asking. Trump is like the fire department that shows up to your house fire, pisses on it to put it out, then pisses on everything within a 10 block radius just for good measure. Sure, the fire might be out, but everything is now covered in piss and no one is happy about it. Anyway, this list: 1) wants to abolish the electoral college This is nowhere near a mainstream left position. It has no serious consideration and probably won't get much.2) wants federally funded single payer health care while abolishing the insurance industry This is a great idea.3) wants to implement The Green New Deal and well, I can't think of any recent policy idea that is further left than that one, not to mention it will bankrupt the country and stomp on our freedoms. (oh, wait, I already said leftist sorry) The NGD has virtually no support outside a handful of leftists. Everyone knows it is basically a pipe dream and there is currently no push to make any facet of it law.4)wants to pack the supreme court Much like #1, this is nowhere near a mainstream left position. It is an idea floated around but is highly unlikely to get any traction. 5)cheers and lights up buildings for legislation allowing abortion on demand up to birth (when for years and currently, the majority of the country is against late term abortions unless the life of the mother is at stake - see multiple Gallup polls) Ummm, it wasn't the Democratic party that did this. Sure, you could argue that most pro-choice people lean left, but again....not the Democratic party.6) wants to abolish ICE and open our borders (note - 76 THOUSAND people tried to cross last MONTH, the most in 12 years, we can't even detain people due to everything is full to overflowing but hey no crisis.) A recurring theme here is you are taking extreme ideas and making it out like they have Democratic support. I think this comes from AOC and a tweet. Call me when there starts to be a push to make this reality....7) wants to give illegal aliens voting rights Illegals already have voting rights in several municipalities. There is literally ZERO push to make illegals eligible to vote in Federal elections, which is the only place where citizenship is required to vote.8) wants to double the minimum wage Not the worst idea, but not the best either. Minimum wage and entry wages have failed to keep pace with the rising cost of living for the past 4 decades.9) wants guaranteed universal basic income As automation takes more and more low level skill jobs, there will be a push from all sides that at least part of the profits gained/saved from automation should be redistributed out to the people. This is not a new concept and is NOT exclusive to the left. I think you are conflating the sentence in the NGD with actual policy.10)wants to give free college tuition I don't object to this. Want to wipe out student debt AND help healthcare? Have government funded hospitals staffed by doctors who had their medical school paid for by the government in exchange for "x" number of years of service at a government ran institution. This is what the military does....11)wants government takeover of corporate boards Ummm, no. You again are confusing talking points and tweets with actual policy proposals.12)attacks and ridicules moderate and reasonable possible candidates like Howard Schultz because they aren't subscribing to leftist orthodoxy Kinda like Trump attacks dead war heroes? Besides the left isn't attacking Schultz because of his policies....they are attacking him because he is a clueless billionaire who thinks he can jump into the Presidency and be successful. Kinda like Trump....
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Post by celawson on Mar 23, 2019 1:45:41 GMT -5
NT, I agree with you -- I don't think Trump should be attacking McCain in that manner. It's not presidential, and it's not the way to treat a dead Patriot. NO argument there. And I agree with Jonah there, too. I do believe Trump has issues with the dossier (which one could very well argue is a stain on the Dems) and that is one reason he's directing vitriol at McCain now. But no, I do not agree with that behavior at all. prozyan, you're wrong. This is nowhere near a mainstream left position. It has no serious consideration and probably won't get much.Well, no. www.npr.org/2019/03/22/705627996/abolishing-the-electoral-college-would-be-more-complicated-than-it-may-seem3) The NGD has virtually no support outside a handful of leftists. Everyone knows it is basically a pipe dream and there is currently no push to make any facet of it law.Wrong again. 5 high profile Dem 2020 candidates who are current senators are backing the plan and you say it has no support? 4) court packing
Much like #1, this is nowhere near a mainstream left position. It is an idea floated around but is highly unlikely to get any traction.
How Court-Packing Went From a Fringe Idea to a Serious Democratic Proposal At least five presidential contenders have expressed openness to Supreme Court reform.www.motherjones.com/politics/2019/03/court-packing-2020/
I will just let the title and subtitle from a recent Mother Jones article speak for itself. 6) abolishing ice
A recurring theme here is you are taking extreme ideas and making it out like they have Democratic support. I think this comes from AOC and a tweet. Call me when there starts to be a push to make this reality.... Calling.....https://www.cnn.com/2018/07/02/politics/abolish-ice-democrats-list/index.html this article is from way back in July and it lists: senators: Elizabeth Warren Kristen Gillibrand Kamala Harris House members: Mark Procan Pramila Jayapal Earl Bleumenaur Jim McGovern Nydia Velasquez Adriano Espaillat Mayor Bill DeBlasio AOC Beto O Rourke also says he's open to it So now that we've got that straight, how about YOU call ME when you have evidence of ONE 2020 Dem contender talking seriously about the situation at the border, which is, in fact, a crisis. Instead they play games to thwart Trump, going against even what many of them said just a few years ago about illegal immigration, while 76 THOUSAND people get caught in one month trying to cross our border. Most of the rest are your opinions because you agree with the proposals/policy ideas. That's fine, of course. But that doesn't mean those ideas are not left of center. They are. And they wouldn't have been touted by a mainstream Democrat even a few years ago.
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Post by prozyan on Mar 23, 2019 2:59:12 GMT -5
Point 1: www.cnn.com/2017/09/14/politics/electoral-college/index.htmlThe Electoral College is going nowhere. Any calls currently being made to abolish it are nothing more than Dems pandering to the base....Speaking where the money is so to say. They can say it because they know that it gets a part of their base fired up and because they also know that nothing will ever come of it. Point 3: GND Support....https://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2019/02/11/the_weak_rollout_of_the_green_new_deal_139426.html Again, pandering to the base knowing nothing will ever come of it. Point 4: Supreme Court adjustments....Hell, I'll use your article. It won't happen because the political fallout is too dire. Besides that, what does packing the court even mean? Not exactly far left radical proposals.... Point 6: Abolishing ICE....https://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/article/2018/jul/03/abolish-ice-movement-getting-louder-its-disbanding/ Again, pandering...not going to happen...this seems to be a pattern, doesn't it? Besides, what the hell does ICE have to do with border security? Border security is under the purview of CBP...got anyone calling for that to be abolished? ." At the end of the day you have 3 Senators, 7 house members, a random mayor, and Beto O'Rourke...and Beto says "I'm open to the idea" to just about everything. Including feeding his wife green baby shit. www.foxnews.com/politics/beto-orourke-tried-to-prank-wife-with-baby-poop-report-saysI'm sure we'll see ICE abolished right around never. Why on Earth would a 2020 contender talk about border security now when they are pandering to the far left for donations? And OMG, BORDER CRISIS! Not quite. 76k sounds like a lot. Shocking number! Unprecedented, right? Well, no. Between 1992 and 2008, border arrests averaged a bit over 120k per month. Per month. For 16 years. In fact, until this latest, recent, and honestly short lived surge, arrests at the border had dropped 75%. All without a wall. What's changed? As has been pointed out many, many times, the vast majority of arrests take place at designated points of entry. A wall does fuck all to stop that. Oh, and removals have outpaced returns every year since 2011. Yes, border security is needed. A wall is not. Universal Healthcare has been touted for at least 3 decades. Abortion rights have been touted for at least 5 decades. Raising the minimum wage...well I can't recall a time this HAS NOT been touted. Guaranteed Universal Basic Income has been an idea since the first factory worker lost his job to automation. As more and more low level/low skill jobs are lost this idea will gain more and more traction. Free College Tuition has been touted for the past century. Government takeover of corporate boards...I'm not convinced this is a serious idea now.
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Post by Don on Mar 23, 2019 6:39:14 GMT -5
I'm so ancient I remember when the left was all up in arms about stupid things Trump was saying, and moderate republicans were saying "Oh, he's just pandering to his base; nothing will come of it. The party will eventually rally behind a moderate."
How'd that work out?
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Post by mikey on Mar 23, 2019 8:53:35 GMT -5
I'm so ancient I remember when the left was all up in arms about stupid things Trump was saying, and moderate republicans were saying "Oh, he's just pandering to his base; nothing will come of it. The party will eventually rally behind a moderate." How'd that work out? Man, I wish I could give five thumbs up for this short and to the point post.
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Post by Don on Mar 23, 2019 9:18:02 GMT -5
The only saving grace I see is the the loonies have several candidates, instead of just one, as was the case with the reps. Perhaps it will work the opposite of last time, with the loons splitting the votes and some moderate picking up the nomination.
I'm not holding my breath, though. As has been pointed out, the routine is to pander then shift to the center for the general, although we saw little shift with Trump.
The important lesson that dems need to learn for 2020, IMO, is that Hillary Clinton was not moderate enough to beat Donald Trump. They're going to have to go more centrist than her if they want to beat Trump, and I don't see that happening. Who would that be? Biden, with his civil asset forfeiture chops, his history of racial discrimination ("predators"), and his love for mass incarceration and the drug war? That would be a frick and frack choice, IMO.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 23, 2019 9:26:57 GMT -5
I'm so ancient I remember when the left was all up in arms about stupid things Trump was saying, and moderate republicans were saying "Oh, he's just pandering to his base; nothing will come of it. The party will eventually rally behind a moderate." How'd that work out? Both parties have always pandered to their base during primaries, to some extent. They move towards the center during the general election. And there are nearly always fringe candidates in the early stages of primary seasons that get winnowed out because they are just too whack for most people. The difference with Trump is (a) he never did move an inch towards the center -- he continued to pandered to his small and ugly base, (b) HOW he pandered to his small and ugly base--with xenophobic, racist, ugly, lying shit, not just pie in the sky ideas--and (c) how far he's been happy to go in that regard despite the fact the center hates it (checked out the polling on the wall sometime). He can do this because establishment Republicans fell in like lemmings and pretend everything is fine, and continue to do so. And then we have the pissed-off ignoramuses who don't know or give a shit about policy, other people, the constitution, separation of powers, etc., as long as they get to blow something up helping it all along. This is not business as usual. Sorry, it ain't.
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Post by Don on Mar 23, 2019 9:52:34 GMT -5
I don't disagree with a word you said, @cassandraw . I agree this isn't business as usual. But I don't see anything that convinces me that what happened to the reps in 2016 can't happen to the dems in 2020 if they're not careful. Do you think centrist dems would refuse to support their candidate if one of the loons pulled off Trump's "divide and conquer" strategy? Do you believe it's impossible for that to happen?
I don't, at the moment, see the one charismatic leader on the left who could do what Trump did on the right. But the night is still young. If the far left candidates start to capitulate in favor of one of their own, look out.
"It can't happen here" is how we got Trump.
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Post by Vince524 on Mar 23, 2019 9:58:25 GMT -5
That is true. Both parties usually move to their right or left to run, then race to the center. Trump didn't. However, usually, they move to the left or right is a bit more subtle to allow them to race to the center. These candidates are mostly hard left to begin with. My fear is that they assume they'll if they get the nomination, they'll win on a hard left run because Trump is hard.... whatever the hell he is, I don't want to even call most of it right. He's hard right field, roving on the fringes with the occasional moments of not batshit crazy. Problem is, his base isn't going anywhere, there are some on the left I won't vote for. (I'll vote 3rd party again, not Trump, but as a NYer, that doesn't really move the dial.) Other's might feel the same or just stay home.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 23, 2019 10:33:52 GMT -5
I don't disagree with a word you said, @cassandraw . I agree this isn't business as usual. But I don't see anything that convinces me that what happened to the reps in 2016 can't happen to the dems in 2020 if they're not careful. Do you think centrist dems would refuse to support their candidate if one of the loons pulled off Trump's "divide and conquer" strategy? Do you believe it's impossible for that to happen? I don't, at the moment, see the one charismatic leader on the left who could do what Trump did on the right. But the night is still young. If the far left candidates start to capitulate in favor of one of their own, look out. "It can't happen here" is how we got Trump. Oh, I absolutely agree that something like this could happen to any party. I agree we must always be vigilant. I consider it my duty as a citizen to be so. But I don't think the Democrats are where the GOP is now, or even close to it. E.g., when Al Franken did his stupid joke picture (his hands were not on her breasts), the Dems pushed him out. Watch Nancy Pelosi deal with some of the new youngsters. It pisses off the far left-- but she's a damn shrewd woman. When the Virginia brouhaha erupted, the condemnations and calls to resign came from all quarters of the Dem establishment. I too called for Franken and the Virginia bros to resign (though I admit, as I've watched my GOP friends whistle at the likes of Trump and Roy Moore, I was sorely tempted to do otherwise...). Some Dems on the far end of things might talk about some extreme ideas, but as Prozyan notes, those ideas aren't being enacted. Whereas the GOP's crazy ideas ARE --Trump declared a fucking state of emergency to build a fucking $25 wall. That's not extreme?! And it's actually happening. The Dems have their bad apples and bad ideas to be sure, but they are still functioning as a party should in policing their own. When they fail to do so, I will be joining you in yelling -- and indeed I have in the past. And yes, I agree we as citizens shouldn't give the Dems a pass just because Trump is awful. I think we should excoriate the Virginia douchebags and if AOC comes up with an unworkable idea or a wrong fact, yes, let's call it out and shoot it down. As I said above, I not only have no problem with that, I'll join in. Remember me on Clinton's handling of her emails? Remember me on the Virginia douchenozzles? Where my problem is in equating what is happening in the GOP right now to what is happening in the Dem party right now. It's simply not the same. Taking aside differences in policy, there was a time when the GOP tried to police its bad apples and curb its fringe kookballs and fringe kook ideas (which, yes, any party has). Unfortunately, that time is no more. The GOP has actually handed the reins over to their lunatic fringe and bad apples, who now control the party, and the rest are actively enabling and defending them. Trump is their leader. The Jeff Flakes? They're either gone or hiding under desks or have gone all-in Lindsay Graham style. I cannot help but feel a little betrayed by certain of my conservative friends. As most of you can attest, I was right out there with them on Hillary's ass on her email thing. But now that Jared is discussing fucking foreign policy on WhatsApp and Trump using an insecure iphone to toss around ideas with Hannity every night and having private meetings with Putin, etc.? Well, I'm screaming, but they're fucking silent -- worse, they're on my case telling me how biased and mean I am against poor, poor Trump and Jared. FFS. No. As much as I thought Hillary's email thing was bad, the Trump cabal's security issues are a thousand times worse, and IMO to not recognize that is dangerous. (And not even to acknowledge that it's happening, after having screamed for Hillary's head? Rank fucking hypocrisy.) So. I'm all on board with keeping the Dems in check. I'm on board with calling out bad apples. I sure as fuck don't want the same thing happening there as has happened to the GOP. But saying the exact same thing IS happening?? Shrugging and saying Trump is business as usual? No. I think it's dangerously wrong to not recognize that what's happening with Trump is way beyond the pale. indeed, NOT recognizing that -- saying it's business as usual -- seems to me to encourage Dems and everyone else to say "well, fuck it, if that's business as usual, we can do it too." ETA: What I'd really like to see the Dems do first, in the House now that they have it, and with the presidency and the Senate if they get it, is to make a firm stand for norms and values. I want them to take measures to kill gerrymandering -- whoever it benefits. As fucking despicable as I think what McConnell and the GOP did to Garland, I actually don't want to see Dems do the same thing. And I think the nuclear option thing should be reversed. As much as I hate what the GOP has done with regard to judgeships over the last couple of years, I don't want to see court-packing as the answer. (I do think it's actually worth discussing the 18-year term limit thing, though -- in large part because it will eliminate a big incentive to get so ugly and torch the process in selecting judges, and yet still serve the intended purpose of having judges that are above the fray of political pressure.)
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Post by mikey on Mar 23, 2019 10:37:49 GMT -5
During the 2018 mid-terms, the Dems deployed an excellent ground game. Their vote harvesting strategy worked extremely well at getting votes that would normally be stay-at-homes.
Finding ways to give the silent 40+% of eligible voters a voice will in my opinion win the race. Regardless of right, left, or middle
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Post by Deleted on Mar 23, 2019 16:06:19 GMT -5
By the way, prozyan , you get a serious salute from me for your last couple of posts and their extremely thoughtful and well-done response to each of celawson's points regarding alleged Democratic party policies. I'm afraid I got all 'splodey-head and didn't even make the attempt.
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