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Post by Deleted on Mar 25, 2019 16:11:36 GMT -5
In other news, I increasingly think Mitch McConnell is corrupt AF:
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Post by nighttimer on Mar 25, 2019 17:31:33 GMT -5
I'll comment on the Mueller report when I see the Mueller report. But we are not reading the Mueller report. We are reading a deeply partisan lawyer's (one who has already indicated in the past that he was opposed to the investigation) incredibly rushed cherry-picked spin on the report. (Seriously -- 48 hours. We don't know how long Mueller's report is, but trust me, it ain't short.) The very few (and often partial) quotes we have from Mueller lead me to think that the actual report is in fact quite damaging. The Barr letter reeks of lawyer weasel words, and yes, I know 'em when I see 'em (as do Ken White and Neal Katyal). I trust Mueller. Frankly, I don't trust Barr at all. ETA: Also good (thread): Therein lies the dangers of putting all of one's eggs in one basket. However, fear not! The Mueller investigation was The Rolling Stones of special prosecutors and The Stones don't open for nobody. With this (parital) wrap-up Mueller is off the stage and for anyone looking for a silver bullet to taking out the Trump Syndicate was being more optimistic than realistic, but the music is still playing and there are many others looking into this gang of thieves.
After Barr's letter, the GOP is moving from defense to swinging into attack mode as they go after politicians, journalists, and former officials. House Minority Leader Kevin McCarthy demands Adam Schiff's resignation. He ain't goin' nowhere. Sarah Suckabee Sanders popped up to declare her boss had been exonerated. Which is some straight-up bullshit. Now, here's the thing. I see a lot of conservatives spiking the ball as if they just won the Super Bowl. I see a few "liberals" wringing their hands and proclaiming they knew all along this was exactly what Trump claimed it was--a witch hunt and a hoax--and the press and Democratic politicians need to suck it up and apologize. Everybody who was mean to Trump must recant and beg for his forgiveness. Fuck all that. With all due respect to the resident attorneys and flag-waving Republicans, let me make it plain: America does not have a JUSTICE system. It has a LEGAL system. I don't need Bob Mueller to tell me Donald Trump is a damn crook and has whored his flabby, fat ass to the Russians for years. If you do, that's on you. Richard Nixon said, "I am not a crook." Donald Trump is still a crook and a greedy bastard and a bigot and a lazy-ass fucker. Is he kompromat? According to Barr's four-page memo, Mueller found no evidence that Trump was. But then he didn't say there was no evidence that he wasn't. Look, it was a nice dream that somehow justice would prevail. Despite how no less than three Attorney Generals were put in place to oversee Muller's investigation and the last one wrote a 19-page memo that there was no obstruction between the Russians and Trump before he got the job. Trump will be well into his second term before anybody sees that Mueller report, if they ever do. Mueller gave Trump his second term on a silver platter. All that's left now are wacko conspiracy theorist. Go America! Wacko conspiracy theorist? Oh, you mean Trump? You're taking a lot of pleasure from a four-page summary written by a guy who was in the bag to let Trump off the hook before he got the gig. Unlike you, I'm going to reserve judgment until I read The Mueller Report. Because if there's nothing there, there's no reason why I as an American taxpayer shouldn't be able to pick up a copy and read it without it being redacted or edited. I paid for the fucking thing. Why shouldn't I be allowed to read it?
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Post by Don on Mar 25, 2019 17:37:20 GMT -5
@cassandraw , what are the odds Barr did all the research himself? Is it possible he sectioned it out to others in his office and said "bring me the juicy parts?" I was involved in the hearings leading up to the Airline Deregulation Act of 1978, and that's how we worked. I got handed the economic bits of various testimonies and told to make sense of them and propose counter-arguments. I'm wondering if that's common in situations like this.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 25, 2019 17:46:11 GMT -5
@cassandraw , what are the odds Barr did all the research himself? Is it possible he sectioned it out to others in his office and said "bring me the juicy parts?" I was involved in the hearings leading up to the Airline Deregulation Act of 1978, and that's how we worked. I got handed the economic bits of various testimonies and told to make sense of them and propose counter-arguments. I'm wondering if that's common in situations like this. Oh, I'm sure that's what he did. But that's NOT what he should have done when, e.g., he was choosing to exonerate Trump for obstruction when (as is clear from his four-page letter), Mueller stated that his investigation did NOT exonerate the president, and that there was difficult evidence weighing in favor of it. A decision like that (a) should be made by Congress, and (b) only after a very careful examination of the evidence. (I'd also add that the "intent" element requires testimony by Trump, which, hello, Barr doesn't have. Sure, as a junior associate in a law firm, I summarized things for partners. I did research and brought them the best stuff. Fine, if what you're doing is saving the client money by having the cheaper people winnow out the chafe and having the higher-ups look only at the wheat. But that's NOT what should happen when determining whether a president committed a crime that would justify impeachment after a two-year huge investigation that apparently, according to the chief investigator, did not exonerate the president. This is especially true when the country is practically at civil war over it, and you know that half the country trusts the chief investigator, and is giving your appointment the side-eye, due to your statements before it. If ever there was a moment when transparency, serious deliberation, and the appearance of being fair and impartial mattered, it's here. Quite frankly, the fact that Barr did what he did the way he did it makes me think that report is actually quite damning, and Barr, with his pedigree, would know that would be the impression, which doubles my suspicion that this was the best he could do with that report. For that reason, I also think we may not see the report until we either have a Democratic president and/or a Democratic Senate as well as a Democratic House -- or if we do see it, it will be redacted to hell and back. I hope I'm wrong, because the country's in a very bad place indeed if I'm right.
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Post by Don on Mar 25, 2019 17:54:14 GMT -5
Agreed. I just thought it might be one explanation for the quick turnaround.
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Post by mikey on Mar 25, 2019 18:32:15 GMT -5
Trump will be well into his second term before anybody sees that Mueller report, if they ever do. Mueller gave Trump his second term on a silver platter. All that's left now are wacko conspiracy theorist. Go America! Wacko conspiracy theorist? Oh, you mean Trump? You're taking a lot of pleasure from a four-page summary written by a guy who was in the bag to let Trump off the hook before he got the gig. Unlike you, I'm going to reserve judgment until I read The Mueller Report. Because if there's nothing there, there's no reason why I as an American taxpayer shouldn't be able to pick up a copy and read it without it being redacted or edited. I paid for the fucking thing. Why shouldn't I be allowed to read it? That's an honorable thing to do, to withhold your judgment until you read the full report. (rolls eyes)
As this is a prediction thread, I'm predicting that you'll have to wait through at least one more presidential election cycle, and likely two of them, before you get your satisfaction.
That's a long time to keep your caldron simmering. Stoking a fire for the next 7 years may not be the best use of your time, there's elections about.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 25, 2019 18:39:22 GMT -5
I'm sure we'll get a big red wave in 2020, just like in 2018.
Jennifer Rubin put out a good piece, in keeping with Mark's thoughts above. Let's keep our eyes on the prize.
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Post by nighttimer on Mar 25, 2019 20:26:29 GMT -5
Wacko conspiracy theorist? Oh, you mean Trump? You're taking a lot of pleasure from a four-page summary written by a guy who was in the bag to let Trump off the hook before he got the gig. Unlike you, I'm going to reserve judgment until I read The Mueller Report. Because if there's nothing there, there's no reason why I as an American taxpayer shouldn't be able to pick up a copy and read it without it being redacted or edited. I paid for the fucking thing. Why shouldn't I be allowed to read it? That's an honorable thing to do, to withhold your judgment until you read the full report. (rolls eyes)
As this is a prediction thread, I'm predicting that you'll have to wait through at least one more presidential election cycle, and likely two of them, before you get your satisfaction.
That's a long time to keep your caldron simmering. Stoking a fire for the next 7 years may not be the best use of your time, there's elections about.
That's nice that you care so much about stoking a fire, but you can relax your sphincter, Mikey. Those of us who fucking despise Trump last week have seen nothing to despise him any less this week.
You seem to be of the belief that this "exoneration" which isn't means smooth sailing for a second term of Don Trump and his mob. Well, you have fun with that, but you shouldn't be counting the money until its in your hand.
I'm not looking for something as nebulous as "satisfaction." I want to read the report and as time goes on, continuing to hide it from the American people will only look more shady, not less. If there's nothing to hide, why hide it.
You seem to believe Republican stonewalling on releasing the Mueller Report benefits them and Trump. Unsurprisingly, I believe exactly the opposite. This is Washington D.C. This report WILL come out one way or another. If the GOP was as smart as they think they are, they'd release it and if there's anything bad for Trump in it, take their lumps now instead of waiting for 2020 when Democrats will be motivated and hell-bent on finding a candidate that can kick Trump's fat ass to the curb.
But you keep on enjoying your empty "victory." We'll just have to wait to see who gets the last laugh.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 25, 2019 21:28:15 GMT -5
Oh, I think the Trump admin is giving us plenty to run with, and Barr is only helping.
Voters have made it pretty freaking clear they want protection for pre-existing conditions, and ironically, Republicans' attempts to gut the ACA greatly increased its popularity (especially since it is clear it will be replaced with nada, if Republicans in power have their way).
But lookie what they're doing now. It's fucking bullshit on all kinds of levels, it upsets and appalls me, but on the bright side, it is also political suicide for Republicans:
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Post by Deleted on Mar 25, 2019 21:49:53 GMT -5
Thread.
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Post by robeiae on Mar 26, 2019 8:53:36 GMT -5
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Post by markesq on Mar 26, 2019 9:14:40 GMT -5
Interesting enough, but media reporting on how media reported on things is frustrating when there's an actual report that should be released, and is genuine news waiting to be reported on.
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Post by mikey on Mar 26, 2019 9:19:50 GMT -5
That's an honorable thing to do, to withhold your judgment until you read the full report. (rolls eyes)
As this is a prediction thread, I'm predicting that you'll have to wait through at least one more presidential election cycle, and likely two of them, before you get your satisfaction.
That's a long time to keep your caldron simmering. Stoking a fire for the next 7 years may not be the best use of your time, there's elections about.
That's nice that you care so much about stoking a fire, but you can relax your sphincter, Mikey. Those of us who fucking despise Trump last week have seen nothing to despise him any less this week.
You seem to be of the belief that this "exoneration" which isn't means smooth sailing for a second term of Don Trump and his mob. Well, you have fun with that, but you shouldn't be counting the money until its in your hand.
I'm not looking for something as nebulous as "satisfaction." I want to read the report and as time goes on, continuing to hide it from the American people will only look more shady, not less. If there's nothing to hide, why hide it.
You seem to believe Republican stonewalling on releasing the Mueller Report benefits them and Trump. Unsurprisingly, I believe exactly the opposite. This is Washington D.C. This report WILL come out one way or another. If the GOP was as smart as they think they are, they'd release it and if there's anything bad for Trump in it, take their lumps now instead of waiting for 2020 when Democrats will be motivated and hell-bent on finding a candidate that can kick Trump's fat ass to the curb.
But you keep on enjoying your empty "victory." We'll just have to wait to see who gets the last laugh. First off Nighttimer, I want to thank you for being concerned about my sphincter. Not nearly enough people are concerned about sphincters in general.
I believe you 100% that you and pretty much every other anti Trumper still despise the President. I don't believe this new narrative will be targeted at you or me.
I think everyone and their dog knows Trump is an exaggerator, and as such that part of Trump is already baked into the pie.
Now though, the Dems and MSM have shown themselves to be liers and way less than truthful. Everything they say from here on out, voters that matter will suspect the truthfulness of the claims.
This whole Russian collusion fiasco, I fear, has inflicted a mortal blow to the dems 2020 aspirations.
Sigh, wish celawson were here to take a victory lap. She deserves it more that anybody else on CG
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Post by Deleted on Mar 26, 2019 9:34:01 GMT -5
We've got half a sentence from Mueller and a pile of lawyers telling you what "establish" does and does not mean. See above.
We also have a pile of Russia experts (conservative ones) deeply disturbed by Barr's (not Mueller's) wordsmithing with regard to the Russia section of Barr's letter.
See, e.g.,
If you think Barr's letter closes the book and settles everything, that there's no need to see the actual report or to think Barr might have misrepresented it, well, at best you are far too credulous.
If this report exonerated Trump, Barr would have quoted more than four half sentences. McConnell would not be fighting to prevent its release. It would be all over Fox and Trump's Twitter feed right now.
This is naked-emperor obvious.
ETA:
If Mueller's actual full report is consistent with Barr's conclusions, I'll accept them. But on the basis of this rushed out letter by a hardcore partisan hired because of his stated opposition to the investigation and to obstruction charges, with its sprinkle of partial quotes and its wealth of weasel words.? Fuck, no, because I am a lawyer and I'm not an idiot. Release the report.
ETA:
If you want to take a "victory lap" based on the Barr letter, sure, go for it. Barr will protect Trump no matter what. Whoopee. You win.
You cannot take one based on the Mueller report because you have no idea what is in it yet. However, I suspect that those inclined to take a "victory lap" don't give a fuck what the investigation found -- they couldn't give less of a shit how corrupt and compromised Trump might be in the first place.
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Post by prozyan on Mar 26, 2019 10:20:02 GMT -5
You look far, far too deep into this Cass. While you may be right, the fact is for the vast majority of Americans there is one fact that matters:
2 year investigation, no charges against Trump.
And it pretty much stops there for most.
Then again, I am a pretty cynical person.
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