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Post by Optimus on Oct 1, 2019 13:16:33 GMT -5
Surprised nobody's posted about this yet. I'm sure most know the major points of the situation. What's your opinion?
As much as I've been wary of impeachment in the past for various reasons (e.g., it could potentially hurt the Dems in 2020, the prospect of Pence taking over would be lateral progress if not worse for the country, etc.), I support it now, insofar as I find the whistleblower's claims believable.
Also, public opinion appears to be swiftly changing to be more in favor of impeachment.
We'll have to see how this all shakes out as it progresses, but if the claims hold up, then good. "Impeach the motherfucker." Trump is garbage and I'd be happy to see his Presidency end in shame and disgrace.
I doubt the Senate Republicans will do the right thing, though. But, stranger things have happened. It'd be nice if they'd actually uphold the Constitution they hypocritically claim to defend.
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Post by robeiae on Oct 1, 2019 13:57:48 GMT -5
I don't know.
I don't have a problem with Trump getting impeached, and it may very well be the case that there are legitimate grounds to do exactly that.
But...my overall sense of all this is that it reflects Trump's ham-handed approach to, well, just about everything (which of course is a primary reason--like his dishonesty--why he's a lousy President). And in that regard, his bull-in-a-china-shop antics are leading to some covers being pulled back that most career pols would have preferred were never pulled back (to say the least).
Relatives of powerful politicians trading on such relationships are, of course, not a new thing. That's been going on as long as there have been politicians (and politicians, themselves, have used their offices to enrich themselves since time immemorial). And by and large, most people seem to just chalk such conduct up to "business as usual." Such activities are only a "problem" when they're overly blatant. Trump is, as a rule, overly blatant. But then, what went on with Biden, his son, and the Ukraine was kinda blatant, too.
I think, if I could have my way, the end result here would be Trump resigning (before getting impeached), Biden retiring from politics, and Biden's son forking over some hefty fines.
Of course, that would leave us with President Pence...
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Post by Deleted on Oct 1, 2019 15:13:30 GMT -5
I agree generally with Opty's take. Frankly, I haven't started a thread or been discussing any of this because (1) I think it's incredibly obvious that this is far, far, far worse than Watergate and the GOP talking points to try to get around it are just astounding bullshit, and (2) perhaps as a result, I find it deeply exhausting and not at all enjoyable to discuss it. Don't even get me started on the GOP "But it's hearsay!" talking point, which is just unbelievably dumb and wrong on so many levels. The "there was no quid pro quo" one is equally idiotic. I could go on for pages on the reasons I believe Trump should and will be impeached. But all it will do is exhaust and depress me to no good end. And I'm exhausted and depressed enough. But since I saw Rob's post, I'll ask about one thing in it, and maybe, god help me, address it. (My asking only about this one thing does not denote agreement with the rest, btw.) Rob, what is it you think Joe Biden did that is "blatant", and how do you think it equates to what Trump has done? Numerous experts and fact-checkers, including conservative ones, have discussed in some detail that the accusations against Joe Biden are lies. If you want me to pull them up and discuss them, I will, but I'd like to hear you spell out what it is you find "blatant," or at least questionable about Biden's actions, so that if I put in the time I'm not simply spending hours talking about stuff that doesn't need discussing. Meanwhile, if you haven't read them: www.mediaite.com/tv/napolitano-debunks-biden-ukraine-conspiracy-theories-on-fox-friends-no-there-there/
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Post by Optimus on Oct 1, 2019 15:16:25 GMT -5
I agree generally with Opty's take. Another one for the ol' signature line...
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Post by Vince524 on Oct 1, 2019 15:32:02 GMT -5
I keep holding out hope that by some miracle he'll just say, I'm not running in the next election, and the floodgates will open for a crap ton of GOPers to toss their hats in.
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Post by robeiae on Oct 1, 2019 15:54:20 GMT -5
Rob, what is it you think Joe Biden did that is "blatant", and how do you think it equates to what Trump has done? What I said was that "what went on with Biden, his son, and the Ukraine was kinda blatant, too." And it doesn't equate to anything Trump has done, nor does it need to for it to be wrong, imo. Biden's son traded on his father's political office to make some major jingle in the Ukraine. And Biden pressured the Ukraine to fire a prosecutor, an action that seemed to help the company his son was involved with. Biden may have had the best of intentions when he threatened the Ukraine over Shokin, Shokin may have been corrupt as hell, but it all still looks like shit, in my view. It doesn't look clean or right, at all. That's mostly the fault of Hunter Biden, to be sure, but Joe Biden didn't try to stop the bs, but instead chose to pretend he didn't know what was going on when I think anyone with at least half a brain knows he knew, full well. And again, this is the kind of stuff that maybe we've all been conditioned to accept, to treat as no big deal, and not "corruption" per se. Trump's biggest problem with his various transgressions is his lack of subtly, his lack of understanding how these various games are played. So again, I'd like to see Trump resign, I think, though I guess if he doesn't he'll need to be impeached (I really don't think actual impeachment will serve the country well, going forward). But at the same time, Biden needs to sit down, because he's not going to get out from under this, regardless, especially if Trump gets taken down. Again, it may be more his son's fault than his, but he ultimately let it go on. And if these things happen, maybe we'll get some common sense rules finally put in place that prevent the family members of national politicians--and this includes spouses--from making money off of political connections.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 1, 2019 15:59:02 GMT -5
I keep holding out hope that by some miracle he'll just say, I'm not running in the next election, and the floodgates will open for a crap ton of GOPers to toss their hats in. If this were the Nixon era, prominent GOP officials would sit down with the president and ask him to step down, or at the very least, not run in 2020. If Trump were Nixon, he'd resign. Alas. This ain't 1974. I suspect that McConnell and some others will stick with Trump as long as, but only as long as, they believe it is politically advantageous to do so, no matter what they think of what Trump has done. (I'd be very surprised if McConnell weren't making some calculations right about now. I don't like him one bit, but he's not stupid.) But even if powers that be in the GOP were to ask Trump to resign or indicate that they'd vote for removal, Trump ain't Nixon. I suspect he'll double-down no matter what. Things are going to get much stupider and much uglier before we are done, I'm afraid. And I think a LOT of people are going to get dragged down in the wake of this mess. All that said, if Trump were to decide he wants out, I actually think that it's slightly more likely that he would step down early rather than simply agree not to run in 2020. The only thing that might possibly get him to voluntarily relinquish the Oval Office is the fear of prosecution and need for a pardon. If he steps down and Pence becomes president, Pence can issue pardons (assuming he doesn't drag Pence down with him, which the dumb fuck seems like he's doing his damndest to do). If Dems take over in 2020, no pardons for him.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 1, 2019 16:06:16 GMT -5
Biden's son traded on his father's political office to make some major jingle in the Ukraine. And Biden pressured the Ukraine to fire a prosecutor, an action that seemed to help the company his son was involved with. Biden may have had the best of intentions when he threatened the Ukraine over Shokin, Shokin may have been corrupt as hell, but it all still looks like shit, in my view. It doesn't look clean or right, at all. That's mostly the fault of Hunter Biden, to be sure, but Joe Biden didn't try to stop the bs, but instead chose to pretend he didn't know what was going on when I think anyone with at least half a brain knows he knew, full well. Your first sentence may well be correct with regard to the actions of Biden's son. The rest is incorrect. Have you read the articles I posted? Getting rid of the prosecutor did not help the son's company. Firing the corrupt prosecutor actually made an investigation of the son's company more likely. E.g., from the NY Times article: From the Bulwark article:
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Post by Optimus on Oct 1, 2019 16:15:26 GMT -5
Yeah, I'm not following the conservatives' risible claims that Biden (along with several other countries) pressuring the Ukraine to investigate and fire a likely corrupt prosecutor for not doing his job (vigorously investigating possible corruption) and replacing him with a prosecutor who DID investigate the matter is in some way shady or indicative of corruption on the Bidens' part.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 1, 2019 17:06:54 GMT -5
Yeah, I'm not following the conservatives' risible claims that Biden (along with several other countries) pressuring the Ukraine to investigate and fire a likely corrupt prosecutor for not doing his job (vigorously investigating possible corruption) and replacing him with a prosecutor who DID investigate the matter is in some way shady or indicative of corruption on the Bidens' part. It's straight out of the Trumpian playbook -- an attempt to confuse things, to throw up a miasma of bullshit so that lots of people say "both sides" and/or throw up their hands and say "oh, it's confusing who knows what happened" (but a vague stink of wrongdoing still sticks, unmerited though it may be). It sets dead aim at the Dem frontrunner, who, rightly or wrongly, Trump allies feel is Trump's biggest threat. And now, instead of talking about the truly egregious acts Trump has unquestionably committed, people like Rob and I are arguing about Biden. The Bulwark article put it well: It's incredibly harmful and it pisses me off--and it's damn effective, unfortunately. And that's why I'm bothering to combat it. ETA: God help me. If anyone here genuinely finds the GOP "but the whistle blower complaint is hearsay and you can't impeach on hearsay" or the "but there's no quid pro quo and without a quid pro quo there's no problem" nonsense at all convincing, speak up and I'll go into why it's nonsense. Because it's seriously fucking nonsense on several levels.
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Post by robeiae on Oct 1, 2019 17:18:42 GMT -5
Your first sentence may well be correct with regard to the actions of Biden's son. The rest is incorrect. Have you read the articles I posted? Getting rid of the prosecutor did not help the son's company. Firing the corrupt prosecutor actually made an investigation of the son's company more likely. I have read your articles, and many more articles, besides. And the above is not a fact. There's a lack of clarity there, and that may very well be because Shokin has been shoveling shit. Or not. I don't like linking to Vox, but Yglesias--of all people--has the right of this, imo: The only caveat I have to the above is that not saying anything when one's son is doing something wrong (based specifically on the fact that he is your son) is, in fact, doing something wrong. So again, I'm okay with Trump getting burned down here, but his misconduct has helped shine a light on other less-egregious stuff that goes on in the corridors of power that is still wrong. In this particular case, it was Biden's son who was involved and Biden, at best, looked the other way. He's not smelling like roses, though he smells a lot better than Trump. Personally, I still am of the opinion that many, many politicians and the people in their orbits get away with shit all the damn time, so I think that when we can burn one down, we should.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 1, 2019 18:25:16 GMT -5
Fine. Let us assume HUNTER Biden is not a good egg. HUNTER Biden is not running for office. The relevant question is whether JOE Biden did something wrong. And I agree, if JOE Biden did something wrong, that's bad and for the record, I'd care.
But all your quote there does is note that maybe HUNTER Biden did something wrong. You throw in this vague "not saying anything when one's son is doing something wrong". Where are you getting this from? Do you have a cite for the assertion that Joe was in fact aware of proven wrong-doing on his son's part, had a duty to disclose it, and failed to disclose it? Can you be more specific about what it was Joe was supposed to disclose and to him? Because damn, that's vague.
And again, assuming Biden's son's company was corrupt, how does getting rid of a corrupt prosecutor--who is corrupt because he refuses to investigate corrupt companies-- assist either Biden or Biden's son?
Absolutely amazing that in a thread started to talk about the impeachment inquiry against Trump, with this past week's worth of absolutely stunning news of corruption in the Trump administration, with his impeachment gaining plurality, if not majority, support among the voting public (I think it's majority at this point), we are talking about really vague allegations against Joe Biden.
But again, that's exactly what Trump and his cohorts were aiming for.
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Post by michaelw on Oct 1, 2019 20:41:48 GMT -5
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Post by Deleted on Oct 1, 2019 21:01:08 GMT -5
I feel like that Ukrainian guy pretty much 24/7 these days.
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Post by prozyan on Oct 1, 2019 22:40:07 GMT -5
The biggest concern I have is the impeachment seems to be spearheaded by the House Intelligence Committee and to be blunt in my opinion...Adam Schiff could fuck up a winning lotto ticket.
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