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Post by Vince524 on Jan 31, 2017 20:12:06 GMT -5
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Post by Deleted on Jan 31, 2017 21:47:25 GMT -5
Well, the guy is amply qualified. I do not, based on what I know now, see grounds for not confirming him.
Of course, I also saw no grounds for not confirming Merrick Garland.
ETA:
BTW, that quote about the mother's life vis a vis the child's is out of context. Here's what Gorsuch said in his book:
In other words, Gorsuch didn't say that there's no constitutional basis for putting the mother's life ahead of the child's. What he did was (correctly) paraphrase the Roe v. Wade court. That court explained that it did not find a fetus to be a person for purposes of the 14th amendment, and notes that if a fetus were a person for purposes of the 14th amendment, the court couldn't have created a right to abortion.
ETA:
Frankly, my initial reaction is that this is a much better pick than I expected Trump to make. I feared he'd pull some alt-right yahoo with sketchy qualifications and shady connections to Trump or Bannon. That's not this guy. He's a pretty classic establishment pick with sterling credentials. Some of his clerks have gone on to clerk for liberal supreme court justices -- which means he isn't using a political litmus test to choose them. He was confirmed to the 10th Circuit without objection.
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Post by robeiae on Feb 1, 2017 6:23:14 GMT -5
I'm still annoyed that Garland wasn't voted on and confirmed. He was a good pick, a fair pick. And imagine what a bummer it must be for him, personally.
Gorsuch? He's got the resume. I'll have to read some of his stuff.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 1, 2017 8:29:32 GMT -5
Yes, Garland should be on the damn court. I think he was perfect -- a superlatively qualified moderate.
What happened with him was disgusting and inexcusable.
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Post by robeiae on Feb 1, 2017 9:10:43 GMT -5
A fair piece from a former Solicitor General (Neal Katyal): Why Liberals Should Back Neil GorsuchThe "so and so is the most qualified candidate ever" schtick is getting really old, really fast, but beyond that this is a reasonable position. The problem is, basically the same sort of piece could have been written about Garland and why Conservatives should have backed him. In fact, I think there were such pieces. But they didn't help Garland.Liberals--Dems--don't need to be held to a higher standard. If they do everything that they can to block Gorsuch for four years, they'd be fully justified imo. One could say "here's a chance for them to be the bigger persons," and that would be true. But they won't benefit from being the bigger persons in this case, imo.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 1, 2017 9:43:35 GMT -5
That's the trouble.
Exactly the same things could be said about Garland. Gorsuch is amply qualified (though not more so than Garland); had the Garland thing not been so outrageous, I would very much be wagging a finger at Democrats and telling them they should not be obstructing this nominee.
But the Garland thing WAS that outrageous. And it's not some ancient outrage; it just fucking happened.
As it stands, giving Gorsuch the easy confirmation he, in himself, probably deserves (as did Garland), is sending a message to Republicans in Congress that they win by being assholes, and Democrats will just roll over.
I actually agree with Neal on Gorsuch's merits, but after sleeping on it -- and I really, really fucking hate to say this -- I not only won't blame Democrats for blocking him, but I almost think they must do it. At the very least, Republicans are in no position to wag a finger.
I really, really hate that's where we are, but I think it is.
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Post by robeiae on Feb 1, 2017 10:10:07 GMT -5
Right, that's what I'm saying. If the Dems give in, they'll look like they're rolling over.
But if they obstruct, the Repubs are going to say--and they'll be wrong, imo--that it's different now because Trump isn't a lame duck, as if such a consideration is some sort of unspoken rule.
That said, the Dems can put up a fight but eventually some will cave, because 2018 is around the corner and some of the Dems up for reelection are in States that Trump won.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 1, 2017 11:02:47 GMT -5
My big fear is that if Gorsuch is blocked, we end up with someone far worse. I agree with Katyal in Gorsuch's merits, and as I said, my first reaction to the nomination was relief.
My second reaction -- I rather wish Trump HAD picked some yahoo. Then I could wholeheartedly cheer the Dems blocking him.
As it stands, I can't condemn them blocking (assuming they do), I do understand, but I'm shaking my damn head that we've arrived at this pass, and I can't cheer.
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Post by celawson on Feb 1, 2017 11:50:08 GMT -5
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Post by Deleted on Feb 1, 2017 12:26:37 GMT -5
Bork and especially Thomas were much more controversial picks than Garland. (I actually thought Bork was a stronger pick than Thomas, which probably will have liberals descending on my head.)
I didn't like the way Bork went down, since I don't really like the partisan shit when it comes to well-qualified candidates (which Bork, IMO, was), but at least it was more about blocking that particular candidate, rather than any candidate a president might pick. (Anthony Kennedy was then confirmed unanimously for the seat, if I recall correctly.)
Thomas is a different kettle of fish entirely. For one, he was ultimately confirmed, and for another, there was a reason for him to be grilled besides a mere political blockade. (And frankly, he hasn't particularly impressed me since he got on the court. Mostly, he sits there. Love Scalia or hate him, one could never say that about him, and IMO hard to deny his brilliance, even if you don't like his decisions.)
Garland was a moderate and an impeccably qualified, noncontroversial pick. And they refused to even consider him -- for a goddamn year -- simply to spite Obama and the Democrats. (A president is not a "lame duck" for the entire last quarter of his term, sorry.)
That, IMO, was a good bit more ridiculous than what happened to Bork and certainly what happened to Thomas.
And it set up what is likely going to happen with Gorsuch. Despite my agreeing he's a well-qualified candidate, I'm just not going to be able to sympathize with any Republican outrage over attempts to block him. Garland was just too recent, and too ridiculous.
I will also agree that it's sad we're here. If I thought Dems would gain a damn thing by taking the high road here, I'd be calling for it. But alas. I think they won't. We shall reap what has been sown.
This particularly saddens me because I think pretty much anyone else Trump is likely to pick will not be as good all round. That's not to say "oh, best pick ever" (as Trump keeps trumpeting) -- he's certainly not better than Garland -- but he's well-qualified and from what I know of him, I won't lose sleep over him being on the court.
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Post by Vince524 on Feb 1, 2017 12:42:24 GMT -5
Right, that's what I'm saying. If the Dems give in, they'll look like they're rolling over. But if they obstruct, the Repubs are going to say--and they'll be wrong, imo--that it's different now because Trump isn't a lame duck, as if such a consideration is some sort of unspoken rule. That said, the Dems can put up a fight but eventually some will cave, because 2018 is around the corner and some of the Dems up for reelection are in States that Trump won. There's no way to look good for everyone.
I'm already seeing people on the left, most of whom I assume probably don't know much about Gorsuch (I don't like that name) beyond the fact that he's Trump's pick calling to boycott.
As far as the lame duck thing, I believe some on the left pulled that in the past.
dailycaller.com/2016/02/14/flashback-in-2007-schumer-called-for-blocking-all-bush-supreme-court-nominations/
www.washingtontimes.com/news/2016/feb/22/joe-bidens-1992-opposition-to-lame-duck-supreme-co/
That doesn't mean they were right. That's just politics.
Now the dems want to block Gorsuch. (Have to remember that it's Gor plus such.) It seems in part repayment for Garland. A sort of tit for tat. While I can agree that the GOP should have confirmed Gorsuch, if we always do this, we're never gonna get anywhere. And I don't see how the Dems doing it because the GOP did gives them any sort of moral high ground.
I suppose it's too much to ask that there be a grown up in the room.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 1, 2017 13:01:32 GMT -5
The trouble is, when one side acts like grownups, and the other side dies nothing but blockade, the blockading side wins it all. To even things up, the Dems almost have to do the same thing.
I say this as someone who profoundly hates such antics and would like to see things move in a more grownup direction. If I thought that Dems, by being grownups and compromising, could moderate Trump and more extreme Republicans and make them more reasonable, I'd be all for it. But frankly, I think the opposite would result. Pulling the same tactics might be the only way for Dems to keep things somewhere near the center.
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Post by Vince524 on Feb 1, 2017 13:03:34 GMT -5
The trouble is, when one side acts like grownups, and the other side dies nothing but blockade, the blockading side wins it all. To even things up, the Dems almost have to do the same thing. I say this as someone who profoundly hates such antics and would like to see things move in a more grownup direction. If I thought that Dems, by being grownups and compromising, could moderate Trump and more extreme Republicans and make them more reasonable, I'd be all for it. But frankly, I think the opposite would result. Pulling the same tactics might be the only way for Dems to keep things somewhere near the center. Not saying you're wrong, but then how can we hope to end it?
Let's assume in 4 years we get a democrat in the WH. The GOP does the same thing, bringing up the talking points of the Dems from now. Etc, etc, so forth and so on.
It's maddening.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 1, 2017 13:06:33 GMT -5
We voters can work to get more moderates into Congress -- people who can actually work with one another and agree on reasonable things -- people who are more devoted to their country than their party. That's the best hope, IMO.
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Post by robeiae on Feb 1, 2017 13:07:13 GMT -5
Absolutely, blocking Gorsuch wouldn't give Dems the moral high ground. No one here is saying that it would, by my reading.
Nonetheless, there was no legitimate reason to prevent a vote on Garland. But the Repubs did exactly that. If the Dems do the same to Gorsuch, the Repubs have no room to complain, whatsoever. And if the Dems don't, if they let Gorsuch get confirmed, the Repubs are not gonna say "gee, that was fair, we should have done the same thing with Garland, we apologize and won't act that way in the future."
Sure grown ups are nice, but supposing the other side has to play that part is pretty damn sleazy, imo.
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