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Post by Amadan on Feb 2, 2017 10:02:39 GMT -5
I went to Cal as an undergrad. If Davis is a liberal bubble, Berkeley is a Marxist bubble that time forgot. So anyway, Milo Yiannopoolos continued onto UC Berkeley, where his appearance was cancelled by riots. Protests and riots against an unpopular person are not new (especially in Berkeley!) But it kind of blows my mind that a flaming performance artist gadfly like Yiannopoolos (who is basically a non-entity except that he has garnered so much attention in the culture wars) has become the focal point of anti-free speech rioting.
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Post by robeiae on Feb 2, 2017 11:10:27 GMT -5
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Post by Amadan on Feb 2, 2017 11:25:55 GMT -5
I'd like to see a bunch of those people get kicked out of school (those who are actual students, at any rate). Never happen, unless they actually kill someone. Even when I was there, I remember some hippie neckbeard assholes vandalized Sather Gate - some protest about somethingsomethingdeadwhitemales - and rather than facing disciplinary action, they got a "community activism" award.
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Post by robeiae on Feb 2, 2017 11:32:01 GMT -5
In the above link, there's a vid of a reporter interviewing a young woman (Trump supporter), and the latter gets sprayed in the face with something (apparently mace) by some douchebag nearby. That person needs to go to jail if they can be identified. If they're a student, they need to be kicked the fuck out. I hope they are identified because I really want to hear the justifications/defenses for their actions.
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Post by celawson on Feb 2, 2017 11:58:57 GMT -5
Holy crap! Gotta have the requisite "F***K Pigs" being shouted at these sorts of things, too. What the hell do they think would happen if the police didn't try to control these idiots? I am still trying to wrap my head around the absolute hatred and fury about this administration. (Did you see the red spray painted message on the pillar?) Yes we can be disappointed or sad or even angry about the stark change in policies, but what did these people expect? We've had 8 years one way and now we're going to have a new way for a while. It's not the end of the world. EDITED TO ADD: To Robo: Don't you know -- she was wearing a red hat. More than enough reason to mace her.
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Post by Vince524 on Feb 2, 2017 12:51:34 GMT -5
It's stuff like this that gives fuel to the fire. All speech is supposed to be protected, not just the speech you agree with.
I don't know too much about this Milo dude, and if they had just ignored him I probably never would have. They just handed him a huge platform and made themselves look like assholes. Yes, I agree with Robo, any students who threw red paint, or broke anything or hurt anyone should be thrown out. I also agree with Amadan. Won't happen.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 2, 2017 18:37:44 GMT -5
Oh, I get the fury at this administration. I get the protests. I've spent a good part of this week connecting with some law school classmates in hopes of donating my time and effort into fighting Trump's executive orders and helping those they screw over. (It's astonishing and inspiring how many other lawyers are doing the same.) I'm on board with all of that.
But I never favor rioting, violence, and vandalism. And I'm always in favor of free speech, and fighting words with words (not rocks and mace).
Milo is a jackass, but I think he's more of a troll than anything else. To me, he's worth a pfft.
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Post by celawson on Feb 2, 2017 22:09:40 GMT -5
Oh, I get the fury at this administration. I get the protests. I've spent a good part of this week connecting with some law school classmates in hopes of donating my time and effort into fighting Trump's executive orders and helping those they screw over. (It's astonishing and inspiring how many other lawyers are doing the same.) I'm on board with all of that. But I never favor rioting, violence, and vandalism. And I'm always in favor of free speech, and fighting words with words (not rocks and mace). Milo is a jackass, but I think he's more of a troll than anything else. To me, he's worth a pfft. What, honestly, does violent protest get people? Does it truly every work? Or does the backlash do more harm than good? Plus, it's worse than the behavior they're protesting!
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Post by nighttimer on Feb 2, 2017 23:01:19 GMT -5
Oh, I get the fury at this administration. I get the protests. I've spent a good part of this week connecting with some law school classmates in hopes of donating my time and effort into fighting Trump's executive orders and helping those they screw over. (It's astonishing and inspiring how many other lawyers are doing the same.) I'm on board with all of that. But I never favor rioting, violence, and vandalism. And I'm always in favor of free speech, and fighting words with words (not rocks and mace). Milo is a jackass, but I think he's more of a troll than anything else. To me, he's worth a pfft. What, honestly, does violent protest get people? Does it truly every work? Or does the backlash do more harm than good? Plus, it's worse than the behavior they're protesting! America is a country that was born out of protest. The violent type and that truly worked, right? And if you think the effect is worse than the cause that's because you don't know much about Milo Yiannopoolos, but then conservatives usually are more outraged about effects than causes. Milo is a gay Ann Coulter trolling the hate on the Right except the blonde hair isn't as long and his Adam Apple isn't as prominent.
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Post by celawson on Feb 3, 2017 0:58:07 GMT -5
Ouch on your last line, Ohio. And yes, I certainly give you the Revolutionary War for violent protest that worked. But I don't agree in many other instances. Especially in more modern times. One of the reasons, IMO, that MLK was so effective as a leader for the Civil Rights movement, was his dignity and emphasis on peaceful protest. Anyway, onto Milo - I have seen Milo interviewed. I've read some things. I definitely think he likes to be outrageous to gain notoriety. And he also does it to get certain reactions from progressives that illustrate the very things he's railing against. I don't know enough about him to judge if he's truly horrible or not, but when I hear people say how awful he is, and then I read or watch him in an interview, I'm left to wonder why people are so threatened by him. And I stand by what I said - the people at Berkeley who trashed businesses and beat people up and sprayed mace into an innocent person's face are worse than Milo.
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Post by Don on Feb 3, 2017 5:24:57 GMT -5
Old adage revamped for modern times.
"Sticks and stones may break my bones, but words may burn the world down"
Violent behavior is not protest. Violent behavior is aggression, and may legitimately be met with overwhelming defensive force to halt the risk to innocents. If it ever happens in my neighborhood, it will be.
YMMV, which is precisely why it keeps happening.
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Post by Amadan on Feb 3, 2017 13:16:10 GMT -5
I believe there are - limited - times when violent protest is right and necessary. If you are opposing crimes against humanity. If you are trying to take down a government. If you need to stand up against another group that is bringing violence. Against a troll who says outrageous things for shock value? No. What, honestly, does violent protest get people? Does it truly every work? Or does the backlash do more harm than good? Plus, it's worse than the behavior they're protesting! America is a country that was born out of protest. The violent type and that truly worked, right? And if you think the effect is worse than the cause that's because you don't know much about Milo Yiannopoolos, but then conservatives usually are more outraged about effects than causes. Milo is a gay Ann Coulter trolling the hate on the Right except the blonde hair isn't as long and his Adam Apple isn't as prominent. So am I a conservative now? Milo says a lot of noxious things and he's planted his flag with the alt-right because it gets him attention, which is pretty funny since most of them would be eager to put him up against a wall once they've established their new world order. Are you actually endorsing smashing stores, burning things, and pepper spraying random people in the street because he was invited to speak at a college campus?
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Post by Vince524 on Feb 3, 2017 13:25:22 GMT -5
The whole idea of protesting a speech is something that makes me itchy. The answer to speech that you don't like is more speech. Everything I've heard about this Milo guy is that he's a tool, but I never would have heard about him at all if the protesters hadn't given him such a huge (Bigly) platform.
Are we at the point now that speech has to be approved? Who gets to decide what's good speech?
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Post by Amadan on Feb 3, 2017 13:30:42 GMT -5
The whole idea of protesting a speech is something that makes me itchy. The answer to speech that you don't like is more speech. Everything I've heard about this Milo guy is that he's a tool, but I never would have heard about him at all if the protesters hadn't given him such a huge (Bigly) platform. Are we at the point now that speech has to be approved? Who gets to decide what's good speech? A protest can be just that - more speech. I would heartily endorse anyone's right to stand outside, wave signs, and jeer at Milo Yianapoulos, Ann Coulter, or Michael Moore. Violent protest is a different matter.
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Post by nighttimer on Feb 3, 2017 13:31:47 GMT -5
I believe there are - limited - times when violent protest is right and necessary. If you are opposing crimes against humanity. If you are trying to take down a government. If you need to stand up against another group that is bringing violence. Against a troll who says outrageous things for shock value? No. America is a country that was born out of protest. The violent type and that truly worked, right? And if you think the effect is worse than the cause that's because you don't know much about Milo Yiannopoolos, but then conservatives usually are more outraged about effects than causes. Milo is a gay Ann Coulter trolling the hate on the Right except the blonde hair isn't as long and his Adam Apple isn't as prominent. So am I a conservative now? Milo says a lot of noxious things and he's planted his flag with the alt-right because it gets him attention, which is pretty funny since most of them would be eager to put him up against a wall once they've established their new world order. Are you actually endorsing smashing stores, burning things, and pepper spraying random people in the street because he was invited to speak at a college campus? I don't endorse it, but I'm not disgusted by it either. I reserve my disgust for a little maggot like Yiannopoulos who vomits out bile and then screams his right to free speech in being impeded. Giving him a platform isn't about "free speech" or any of that First Amendment noise. It's about not enabling a racist douche nozzle because it's hip and edgy and those are two bad reasons. It constantly amuses me how conservatives (and those who proclaim they aren't but can reliably be found on that side of the argument) demands for law and order at all costs, includes taking the law into their own hands if need be. Racism is okay, but disturbing the peace earns you a bullet. Hypocrisy is still the greatest luxury. Oh, and I've given zero thought to whether you're a conservative or not. Why should I care about that?
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