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Post by Angie on May 16, 2017 10:20:11 GMT -5
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Post by robeiae on May 16, 2017 10:26:00 GMT -5
come on. what kind of idiot tweets something like that the morning after he's accused of leaking sensitive info, while his advisers are still scrambling to 'splain it? *narrows eyes*Did you read the post where I noted Trump's response? I said "it would nice if the admin was on the same page." And the post itself opened with "on the other other hand" to contrast it with the post McMasters. You and Amadan both seem unable to come to terms with my lack of emotive, hand-wavy criticisms, here. Yes, I'm criticizing the douchebags in government who keep leaking shit. Yes, I'm criticizing the media for its Trump fixation. But I'm not giving Trump a pass. His response was ridiculous, that's what my comment about being on the same page was intended to convey. And he's still a train wreck, regardless of what he said or didn't say. Still, every single story that comes out on Trump is not THE END OF THE FUCKING WORLD. As I said to Amadan, the way to get rid of him is with solid, hard evidence, not ginned up outrage. I mean, there are still people going apeshit over Comey. The guy fucked up royally--and publicly--a number of times. Trump had the authority to can his ass. The optics might suck, but the fix for that is at the ballot box. It's not an impeachable action. This passing of classified info--if it went down the way WaPo is claiming--may represent something worse, but it won't represent shit as long as it's coming from unnamed sources, just another chunk of red meat for the dogs in the media to drool over til Trump's next outrageous move.
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Post by robeiae on May 16, 2017 10:31:36 GMT -5
He opened his mouth about shit he shouldn't be opening his mouth about according to unnamed sources. If it's that big a deal, if he did put an asset in danger, then the info needs to be vetted and verified. The source(s) needs to walk up to the mic and say what happened, not play footsie with reporters over cocktails at the Capitol Grill. You mean, they should publicize the classified info and the source, just to guaran-fucking-tee that anyone associated with the intel will be burned? Okay, if you want to believe this is all fake news because "LOL Trump Derangement Syndrome!" fine. It's all DC insiders out to get Trump. No, I think we should accept the word of unnamed sources out of hand because "LOL Trump is awful," and begin impeachment proceedings against him based on the WaPo article. I don't believe it's fake news. I just don't accept everything I read, just because it makes Trump look bad. Regardless, whomever is the source here can certainly appear behind closed doors, before a Senate subcommittee or the like. But unnamed isn't good enough, imo. Not when a sitting President is being accused of something this severe.
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Post by Amadan on May 16, 2017 10:37:06 GMT -5
Did you read the post where I noted Trump's response? I said "it would nice if the admin was on the same page." And the post itself opened with "on the other other hand" to contrast it with the post McMasters. You and Amadan both seem unable to come to terms with my lack of emotive, hand-wavy criticisms, here. Yes, I'm criticizing the douchebags in government who keep leaking shit. Yes, I'm criticizing the media for its Trump fixation. But I'm not giving Trump a pass. His response was ridiculous, that's what my comment about being on the same page was intended to convey. And he's still a train wreck, regardless of what he said or didn't say. Still, every single story that comes out on Trump is not THE END OF THE FUCKING WORLD. As I said to Amadan, the way to get rid of him is with solid, hard evidence, not ginned up outrage. I mean, there are still people going apeshit over Comey. The guy fucked up royally--and publicly--a number of times. Trump had the authority to can his ass. The optics might suck, but the fix for that is at the ballot box. It's not an impeachable action. This passing of classified info--if it went down the way WaPo is claiming--may represent something worse, but it won't represent shit as long as it's coming from unnamed sources, just another chunk of red meat for the dogs in the media to drool over til Trump's next outrageous move. I'm swearing a lot because this really, really pisses me off, for reasons that strike close to home. But that does not mean your "lack of emotive" criticisms are more coldly analytical (or, more importantly, well-informed) than mine. I have certainly not acted like every single story that comes out on Trump is THE END OF THE FUCKING WORLD. This one is not THE END OF THE FUCKING WORLD either. But it is a BIG FUCKING DEAL. The problem with classified intel leaks is that, well, professionals are not going to go to CNN and say "Here is this classified document spelling out exactly what the President did." Because duh. If you're looking for the level of "proof" that would penetrate your "must-be-fair-to-Trump" bubble, you probably will not see that until decades from now when persons involved are long-since retired and not too worried about either being prosecuted or burning still-active sources, if then. Yes, you are right, this could all be ginned up slander by DC operatives who hate Trump. There is certainly not enough evidence, based on the WaPo story, to convict anyone. But unless you believe they are just making shit up and publishing anything that will make Trump look bad, your "Look at me being all both-sides-are-being-equally-ridiculous" routine is aggravating because it's not healthy skepticism, it's incredible.
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Post by robeiae on May 16, 2017 10:51:58 GMT -5
*shrug*
As is usually the case, I want more info.
Beyond that, I seriously think people in DC are leak-happy. Regardless of the accuracy of these leaks, this is not a good thing, imo. It is, in fact a very dangerous thing.
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Post by Deleted on May 16, 2017 11:43:50 GMT -5
An observation:
The biased liberal media that was too partisan to be trusted was once, and not so long ago, considered to be outlets like Huffpo and Daily Kos. With that, I heartily agree. Both sides have outlets like that, and though they include some actual news, the slant is so very pronounced one really can't rely on them , the line between opinion and news is hopelessly blurred -- and all too often, they run away with misinformation.
But then gradually, the accusation has spread so that every single venerated news source is now considered by a terrifying percentage of our country to be "fake news." I think that is fucking ridiculous and downright dangerous.
Do WaPo and the NY Times occasionally get a fact wrong? Sure, occasionally -- very, very occasionally. Do opinions on their editorial pages often have a liberal bent? Sure -- though they do also include conservative viewpoints. But for fuck's sake, they aren't fake news. They're pretty damn careful about vetting facts. They don't tend to run away presenting urban legend as uncontroverted fact, like, say Breitbart does.
With the advent of Trump, we are now at the point where the alt-right claims EVERY news organization or public figure that isn't supportive of Trump is fake news and can't be trusted. Conservatives like George Will and David Brooks are liberals in disguise disseminating fake news. The National Review, the Wall Street Journal, conservatives in Congress, former Bush advisors, all coming out with more and more "Trump is dangerous" stuff -- that's not evidence Trump is a problem. No, it's evidence that those so-called conservative outlets and pundits are part of the left-wing conspiracy. Only fucking Breitbart, apparently, can be thoroughly trusted, according to Trump's base. Even Fox has closet liberals they need to rout out, like that pinko punk Chris Wallace.
That's fucking batshit. Batshit and wrong and dangerous. And it is where we are.
The fact that so many are in an uproar over Trump -- including prominent, respectable conservatives -- could be evidence that everyone is just a brainwashed left-wing partisan gone mad. Or it could be evidence that Trump really is that fucking bad.
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Post by Deleted on May 16, 2017 12:53:48 GMT -5
While I don't disagree that there has been a certain amount of hysteria in the general climate, that does not mean that the uproar over this incident (and others, for that matter) is unjustified.
I don't think this is business as usual in the White House, or anything close to it. If it were Pence in the White House, absolutely he'd still get criticism (as would any president), but not nearly at the same level or of the same type, and he'd have a healthy number of outlets and mainstream conservative pundits defending him.
The reason the uproar is so over-the-top is because Trump is and his actions are.
Nearly every newspaper in the country, including conservative papers that had never supported a Democrat, came out against Trump during the election. A ton of conservative pundits and outlets are wringing their hands over his actions here. Is that really all liberal media bias and hysteria?
According to a disturbing number of our citizens, yes. It is a cult of personality -- if you criticize Trump, you are a RINO, corrupt, brainwashed by the liberal media. That actually scares me as much as Trump's scarier actions.
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Post by celawson on May 16, 2017 13:25:01 GMT -5
Robo has made so many good posts in this thread, just let me say I agree with them all. *thumbs up* These leaks by anonymous sources really do seem to be part of a concerted effort to damage Trump. And it's so easy because, well, Trump. But by all accounts, McMaster is intelligent, vastly experienced, and his integrity is without question. He was right there when this occurred. He doubled down today. I choose to believe him. www.foxnews.com/politics/2017/05/16/white-house-says-trump-info-sharing-with-russia-wholly-appropriate.html
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Post by Deleted on May 16, 2017 13:27:21 GMT -5
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Post by celawson on May 16, 2017 13:36:11 GMT -5
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Post by Amadan on May 16, 2017 13:41:21 GMT -5
Robo has made so many good posts in this thread, just let me say I agree with them all. *thumbs up* Of course you do. Really? You're going with the Big Liberal Fake News Conspiracy here? The WaPo, the NYT, CNN, they're all just out to get Trump and will report anything, regardless of sources or facts or verification, because they're all just a bunch of deranged Trump-haters? Is that really what you believe? No one is doubting McMaster's credibility. But his denial has loopholes you could drive a truck through, and it's his job to do damage control in a situation like this. He was very careful about what he said. But yeah, it's all Fake Liberal News. *thumbs up and mega-dittoes!!*
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Post by Deleted on May 16, 2017 16:21:05 GMT -5
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Post by Deleted on May 16, 2017 20:25:46 GMT -5
I just wonder which 'ally' is now waking everyone up in a scramble to save their intel source. France? Israel? Turkey? One of the middle Eastern countries? I mean, each of them would be horribad in their own way. Is Trump going to brag more later on? Maybe about UK or German shared intel? FYI, the NY Times and other sources are saying the source was Israel.
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Post by Deleted on May 16, 2017 21:08:31 GMT -5
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Post by Angie on May 16, 2017 22:01:10 GMT -5
John McCain, who I've always admired as a man of principle and consideration even though I deeply disagree with him on many issues, says Trump's scandals are reaching Watergate proportions.
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