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Post by Christine on May 17, 2017 18:55:37 GMT -5
I loathe Pence as much as I loathe Trump, for entirely different reasons. An inefficient Trump vs. an efficient Pence. These are the poll choices? Have to go with "tie." Never underestimate an evangelical Christian: It kills me how some conservatives are so dire about Muslims in government (or in our country at all) because Sharia Law! OMG! but they're totes cool with their own religion being inflicted on everyone else.
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Post by Deleted on May 17, 2017 19:12:06 GMT -5
I don't doubt Pence holds those views. But I do doubt he'd succeed in getting any of them enacted as law without a court smacking him down. I don't think he'd be more likely than Trump to try to enact such things, and I actually don't agree he'd be more effective at it. I do think he'd be less likely to damage our international standing, blow us all up, or destroy all faith in our system of government. Meuller looks like a solid choice for special prosecutor. en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Mueller.
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Post by Christine on May 17, 2017 19:18:10 GMT -5
By all accounts/opinions I've read, Mueller is a stellar choice.
As far as courts smacking Pence down, I hope you're right. But this is part of the reason less-than-impressed conservatives voted for Trump in the first place: because of the upcoming SC nominations. It's not an immediate threat, no, but Pence in the WH with a GOP Congress and an open seat or two could shift the balance on the Supreme Court.
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Post by Deleted on May 17, 2017 19:43:35 GMT -5
It could shift the balance on the court, and I'm with you on not wanting that. But getting an extremist (let alone several) appointed who foams at the mouth to enact a far right agenda without regard to precedent or existing law -- I think it unlikely. The Supreme Court is not supposed to make law. It can't just up and say "ya know what? fuck Roe v Wade, let's have a redo so abortion isn't legal anymore." They're actually not supposed to act as partisans. To get a real partisan extremist on the court approved -- well, if we get there, the country is probably fucked up beyond hope anyway. And anyway, I don't think Pence versus Trump on Supreme Court picks will make much difference.
Meuller is deeply experienced, respected enough on both sides that I think having him in charge will help calm things a bit, and will give some much-needed faith in the process and results. My "connected" friends are giving him a thumbs-up on integrity that goes beyond his resume.
Best news I've heard in a while.
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Post by Christine on May 17, 2017 19:59:01 GMT -5
I understand that the SC doesn't make law. But... states pass bills all of the time, and they're struck down because of the balance we basically have now. I mean, just theoretically, if we had nine Scalias on the Supreme Court, what would be the state of a woman's right to choose (or a zillion other things)? I don't think this is imminent, as you say. But there are stakes. And I do despair that "not as bad as Trump" has to be the standard right now.
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Post by Deleted on May 17, 2017 20:11:47 GMT -5
I'm not happy about that either. But it is where we are.
I do have enough faith in our check and balances system overall that my biggest fear is of a loose cannon authoritarian populist like Trump tearing it down and/or eroding faith in it, rather than one side or the other gaining power for a few years.
One thing I agree wholeheartedly with Don on -- we've let our President get too powerful over the last couple of administrations.
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Post by Christine on May 17, 2017 20:21:14 GMT -5
Don would mock us both for this entire exchange.
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Post by celawson on May 17, 2017 20:25:06 GMT -5
Where is Don, by the way?
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Post by Christine on May 17, 2017 20:28:44 GMT -5
He usually posts between 4:00-5:00 a.m. EST.
Not that I notice these things.
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Post by Deleted on May 17, 2017 20:36:05 GMT -5
Don's had a lot going on recently in real life. He'll be back to mock us, probably between 4 and 5 a.m.
If Trump and his advisers are innocent of wrongdoing, they actually should welcome Meuller. He's thorough and very competent, he has integrity, his appointment will quiet some uproar, and both sides will have some faith in the results (I will, for sure). Also, I think he'll keep a lid on leaks, which should please Trump.
If Trump has anything to hide, on the other hand, Meuller won't miss it. I need to check whether Trump has tweeted on this development.
ETA:
The other thing that will likely please Trump is that the investigation will probably take a while.
But I think we'll get the truth. And that pleases me.
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Post by maxinquaye on May 17, 2017 22:03:17 GMT -5
If Pence were to take over, I hope he does so after the mid-terms, that is IF the democrats can get their things in order and actually win them so that at least the Senate flips.
I'm not too hopeful about that though.
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Post by Deleted on May 17, 2017 22:23:32 GMT -5
I don't know -- I think Republicans have taken a hit with recent events. There's all the Trump stuff, of course, and there's also that very hasty and unpopular healthcare bill. The Senate won't pass it, of course, but they've got a tricky game. Appeasing voters at home while still crafting something that will get past the hardliners in the House will not be an easy task. If they don't pass anything, many will jump all over them, but if they pass something that people don't like, they're screwed. It will not be an easy road.
Voters like throwing rocks. It's harder to blame Democrats when Republican have control of everything. I think there's now a pretty good chance -- much better than there was -- of Democrats flipping the Senate.
A few months ago, I thought Democrats were on the defensive -- but now I think Republicans are. Of course, at the speed things have been moving, who knows what will happen by next year.
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Post by Optimus on May 17, 2017 23:47:14 GMT -5
Ugh, seems like every hour there's a new story/leak/scandal involving this Trumpster fire. Once I think I'm caught up, there's a new one and everything changes. GRR, I CAN'T KEEP UP WITH IT ALL!
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Post by Deleted on May 18, 2017 0:15:56 GMT -5
It is rather exhausting.
Imagine being a journalist right now. Or working in the White House.
Imagine being Sean Spicer,and not only having to keep up, but also to 'splain everything. He must be so very tired.
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Post by Don on May 18, 2017 6:40:40 GMT -5
I know Don thinks Pence is Nehemiah Scudder, but I don't think so. I think he'd be just another Reagan. Bad enough, but not apocalyptically bad. Or even Trump-bad. I think folks expecting Trump to step down or be impeached are dreaming, though. I think he will serve out his entire 4-year term. I think the ruling class is, on average, smart enough that Pence wouldn't be able to fully execute his Nehemiah Scudder fantasy, but I'd bet a bunch that's what he gets off to. I'm actually leaning toward a Pence presidency demonstrating government's total inability to impede or reverse social progress, and hand a whole hunk of power back to the individual in the process. I loathe Pence as much as I loathe Trump, for entirely different reasons. Exactly the way I feel. It kills me how some conservatives are so dire about Muslims in government (or in our country at all) because Sharia Law! OMG! but they're totes cool with their own religion being inflicted on everyone else. A parallel can easily be drawn with those who believe in the religion of government. I do have enough faith in our check and balances system overall that my biggest fear is of a loose cannon authoritarian populist like Trump tearing it down and/or eroding faith in it, rather than one side or the other gaining power for a few years. I'm starting to favor Pence over Trump because he'd focus that erosion in the places more socially useful, while calming things in international terms. You talk about eroding faith in government like it's a bad thing. Personally, I'm not a big fan of faith, and I think eroding the faith that government is the first place to look for a solution to any problem in society would lead to faster social progress. Look at how gender rights and marijuana reform are happening... from the bottom up; communities then states then finally the Leviathan Ship of State FedGov. Obviously, the bigger the ship of state that society has to turn, the harder the task. One thing I agree wholeheartedly with Don on -- we've let our President get too powerful over the last couple of administrations. Personally, I think it started with Wilson, although there are reasonable arguments for sooner. Washington and the Whiskey Rebellion, for example. Don would mock us both for this entire exchange. Nah, just the faith-based talk about government. He usually posts between 4:00-5:00 a.m. EST. Not that I notice these things. Sorry I was late today. I'll try to do better in the future.
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