|
Post by Christine on Jun 24, 2017 14:43:35 GMT -5
Optimus , that was a superb post, thank you for taking the time. I get what you are saying now. "The far left and and the far right are exactly the same" and the Wiki link weren't explanatory like that. The Wiki link doesn't describe HT as being only in the context of authoritarianism (or, methods). I did end up reading two pages of Google articles today. One was about how "centrism" can and has employed the same methods that more extreme ideologies often do. In part, centrism portrays extremism on either side as "the enemy" which justifies the use of authoritarianism. I thought that was interesting. It was this one. Just another opinion but, interesting.
|
|
|
Post by Vince524 on Jun 24, 2017 15:01:30 GMT -5
Trolls are the same, whether their under the banner of far left, far right or what have you.
|
|
|
Post by Optimus on Jun 24, 2017 16:32:40 GMT -5
Optimus , that was a superb post, thank you for taking the time. I get what you are saying now. "The far left and and the far right are exactly the same" and the Wiki link weren't explanatory like that. The Wiki link doesn't describe HT as being only in the context of authoritarianism (or, methods). One interesting thing that I've noticed (and this is only my own biased perspective) is HT and its implications for authoritarianism suggest that extremists on the far right wing are susceptible to being manipulated, swayed, or otherwise whipped up into a mouthfoaming frenzy by a totalitarian, authoritarian leader (e.g., Trump). However, it seems to me that for far left, they succumb to an authoritarian ideology without the totalitarian leader. Whereas the far right tend to fall in line politically with whomever their leader is, the far left extremists will turn on their leaders in an instant for doing anything that even hints at an ideological sin (punishing "blasphemous" behavior). I suppose some of the confusion about my HT post comes from the fact that I usually use HT in a very broad, more traditional sense but, unfortunately, the discussion of it has morphed into something that is sometimes unrecognizable ever since more people in the public have latched onto the idea. Though I disagree with some of the slippery-slope points the author tried to make in that article you linked to, I do agree that even centrism could be susceptible to irrational tactics and I also feel that all three groups (far right, center, far left) can be victims of sticking their heads in the sand on some issues. Perhaps we should change the horseshoe to a triangle?
|
|
|
Post by Don on Jun 24, 2017 16:51:39 GMT -5
Optimus , that was a superb post, thank you for taking the time. I get what you are saying now. "The far left and and the far right are exactly the same" and the Wiki link weren't explanatory like that. The Wiki link doesn't describe HT as being only in the context of authoritarianism (or, methods). I suppose some of the confusion comes from the fact that I usually use HT in a very broad, more traditional sense but, unfortunately, the discussion of it has morphed into something that is sometimes unrecognizable ever since more people in the public have latched onto the idea. Though I disagree with some of the slippery-slope points the author tried to make in that article you linked to, I do agree that even centrism could be susceptible to irrational tactics and I also feel that all three groups (far right, center, far left) can be victims of sticking their heads in the sand on some issues. Perhaps we should change the horseshoe to a triangle? I think a triangle is appropriate, with individualism/choice/voluntarism represented by the point at the top and collectivism/authoritarianism/coercion represented by the line at the bottom. Then there's room along the bottom for the traditional left/right divide, and the bottom line contains the most extreme authoritarians... allowing for those centrist extremists.
|
|
|
Post by Don on Jun 24, 2017 17:04:15 GMT -5
Optimus , your first para (just added) is an interesting observation worthy of further consideration. Charisma vs. ideology?
|
|
|
Post by nighttimer on Jun 25, 2017 15:50:12 GMT -5
Otto Warmbier's death is tragic, but it's a personal tragedy for the family. It's not an international crisis.
If Trump wants to avoid further incidents of Americans being arrested and incarcerated, here's an easy fix. Ban all travel by Americans to North Korea. Problem solved.
|
|
|
Post by Optimus on Jun 25, 2017 15:55:03 GMT -5
Otto Warmbier's death is tragic, but it's a personal tragedy for the family. It's not an international crisis. If Trump wants to avoid further incidents of Americans being arrested and incarcerated, here's an easy fix. Ban all travel by Americans to North Korea. Problem solved. Given his penchant for wanting to ban travel to/from places, it's surprising he hasn't. Then again, I have no idea why any rational person would want to travel to NK anyway, given what we know about their government.
|
|
|
Post by Vince524 on Jun 25, 2017 18:36:28 GMT -5
Otto Warmbier's death is tragic, but it's a personal tragedy for the family. It's not an international crisis. If Trump wants to avoid further incidents of Americans being arrested and incarcerated, here's an easy fix. Ban all travel by Americans to North Korea. Problem solved. I don't know if I agree with that. Warmbier wasn't killed by someone in NK, he was killed, in essence, by NK. I agree, despite my own rabble rousing earlier in the thread, that a military solution is no solution. And maybe it's not an international crisis, certainly not on the scope of other things, but nevertheless, it's one country that murdered a citizen from our country because he came from our country. Personally, I don't get why anyone would want to go there, but there are American's there right now, being tortured. I'd say someone should do something. Someone from the US. And before you ask, no. I don't know what. I really don't know what we can do that can rescue the other Americans and get even a semblance of Justice for Otto Warmbier without causing a much bigger problem and humanitarian crisis than not doing anything. Yet that doesn't change the fact that something should be done.
|
|
|
Post by Vince524 on Jun 25, 2017 18:39:31 GMT -5
|
|
|
Post by Christine on Jun 25, 2017 18:48:51 GMT -5
Proof that our higher education system has not gone completely mad.
|
|
|
Post by Christine on Jun 25, 2017 18:51:40 GMT -5
I think a triangle is appropriate, with individualism/choice/voluntarism represented by the point at the top But of course. Tell me something, how would your ideological trifecta deal with health care, poverty, education, discrimination, the opiod addiction crisis, environmental issues, global issues, North Korea, ISIS, etc., given where we are, right now? Not in theory. Realistically and practically, with right now as the starting point. It's all well and good to criticize the status quo and those you think have done/are doing it all wrong, but what would you do to fix it?
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jun 25, 2017 18:53:57 GMT -5
I just do not understand the impulse to say cruel things like that when someone, especially a young person, dies. If Otto had been a killer, rapist, or child molester, I would understand the sentiment. But here, the worst thing the kid did (if he even did it) was to try to take a banner. No one deserves to die for something so petty. And one must also remember he left grieving family and friends behind. Otto didn't get what he deserved. However, from the sound of it, Ms. Dettwyler did.
|
|
|
Post by Vince524 on Jun 28, 2017 12:06:11 GMT -5
|
|
|
Post by Amadan on Jul 2, 2017 11:18:36 GMT -5
Otto Warmbier's death is tragic, but it's a personal tragedy for the family. It's not an international crisis. If Trump wants to avoid further incidents of Americans being arrested and incarcerated, here's an easy fix. Ban all travel by Americans to North Korea. Problem solved. It's not an international crisis, but it is an international incident. One of the most basic functions of a government is to protect its citizens. If another country targets your citizens abroad, you must do something about it or you send the message that your citizens abroad are fair game. Obviously, that doesn't mean we declare war against North Korea. And there are few good solutions, since we have so little leverage against the crazy hermit kingdom that is NK. Nonetheless, I am sure there are some things that can be done, even if they are "back channel." Coming up with solutions to this is kind of the point of having large State and Defense departments and intelligence agencies. Trump, of course, is unlikely to take advantage of these resources in an effective manner.
|
|
|
Post by Vince524 on Jul 3, 2017 7:22:23 GMT -5
Otto Warmbier's death is tragic, but it's a personal tragedy for the family. It's not an international crisis. If Trump wants to avoid further incidents of Americans being arrested and incarcerated, here's an easy fix. Ban all travel by Americans to North Korea. Problem solved. It's not an international crisis, but it is an international incident. One of the most basic functions of a government is to protect its citizens. If another country targets your citizens abroad, you must do something about it or you send the message that your citizens abroad are fair game. Obviously, that doesn't mean we declare war against North Korea. And there are few good solutions, since we have so little leverage against the crazy hermit kingdom that is NK. Nonetheless, I am sure there are some things that can be done, even if they are "back channel." Coming up with solutions to this is kind of the point of having large State and Defense departments and intelligence agencies. Trump, of course, is unlikely to take advantage of these resources in an effective manner. No, but he'll tweet at 'em.
|
|