|
Post by Christine on Aug 3, 2017 21:17:35 GMT -5
And so we are, but it won't be because of healthcare. It amuses me that we're teetering on the brink: about to become a socialist country or about to become a fascist dictatorship, depending on who is in power and who one asks. Regardless, imo we're pretty far away from either in actuality. I agree, but only because those people one asks are constantly resisting. On either brink, the other side is always resisting. Which is a good thing, yeah?
|
|
|
Post by robeiae on Aug 4, 2017 9:01:28 GMT -5
Absolutely. It's a pendulum, always swinging, always getting pulled back.
|
|
|
Post by Amadan on Aug 4, 2017 20:22:35 GMT -5
The state of economic education is abysmal. I'm pretty much convinced that's not an accident. Here's a perfect example. The education system has no trouble getting across the concept of unsustainable ecology. They should be capable of explaining the same concept in the economics classroom. Seriously, Don, this is a non-rhetorical question - you keep implying that there are dark forces at work conspiring to make sure people don't "understand" economics. Who are these people? Do you genuinely believe that the Department of Education, under the direction of (Congress? Bankers? The Gnomes of Zurich?) plans a nationwide classroom curriculum that deliberately stunts economic understanding so that people will be too uneducated to make intelligent decisions and vote accordingly? Because I really want to know how that works.
|
|
|
Post by Don on Aug 4, 2017 21:48:56 GMT -5
The state of economic education is abysmal. I'm pretty much convinced that's not an accident. Here's a perfect example. The education system has no trouble getting across the concept of unsustainable ecology. They should be capable of explaining the same concept in the economics classroom. Seriously, Don, this is a non-rhetorical question - you keep implying that there are dark forces at work conspiring to make sure people don't "understand" economics. Who are these people? Do you genuinely believe that the Department of Education, under the direction of (Congress? Bankers? The Gnomes of Zurich?) plans a nationwide classroom curriculum that deliberately stunts economic understanding so that people will be too uneducated to make intelligent decisions and vote accordingly? Because I really want to know how that works. No conspiracy necessary. Just as religionists preach original sin and intelligent design because it's a natural fit to their storyline, the political class has a vested interest in selling the belief that an economy can be planned, just as they have a vested interest in selling the belief in an all-encompassing social contract. Not surprising at all, really, when you consider they are the ones with the hubris to believe they can do the planning and the lust for the power to attempt it. I'm sure many of those who promote the system are as sincere in their belief as are many religionists who believe in intelligent design.
|
|
|
Post by Amadan on Aug 5, 2017 10:03:30 GMT -5
No conspiracy necessary. Just as religionists preach original sin and intelligent design because it's a natural fit to their storyline, the political class has a vested interest in selling the belief that an economy can be planned, just as they have a vested interest in selling the belief in an all-encompassing social contract. Not surprising at all, really, when you consider they are the ones with the hubris to believe they can do the planning and the lust for the power to attempt it. I'm sure many of those who promote the system are as sincere in their belief as are many religionists who believe in intelligent design. And just as many religionists are actually not creationists or believers in original sin, many of the "political class" are also not central planners and lusters after power. Seriously, do you believe everyone who goes into politics or government is an apparatchik? I really wish you could see the world in shades of gray instead of your Manichean worldview in which there are pro-freedom libertarians and everyone else. You are like so many libertarians, who have some good ideas and say a great deal that's worthwhile, but completely lose me because you can't conceive of anyone being as smart and as educated and as knowledgeable and as sincere as you and yet coming to different conclusions. You have identified certain ideologies that poison political and economic reform in the country, but your ideology has poisoned health care reform because the very idea of a single payer system elicits not a rational criticism of its flaws but a religious aversion to the concept. And while most people in the US are not libertarians, you and conservatives have convinced a substantial number of people that anything socialized at all is full-blown Marxism, bread lines, and the imminent onset of a Stalinist dictatorship. Personally, I'm on the fence with single payer - I have severe misgivings about it (and other forms of social welfare). Yet looking at the account books, it is hard to argue against the fact that countries with socialized medicine are doing much better than the US in terms of what they get for what they pay. The usual rebuttal is "A true free market system would be even better and more efficient!" but to me, that sounds like a refrain of all the true believers in communism who insisted that while the Soviet Union and China and Cuba and other Marxist countries weren't quite there yet, True Communism was just around the corner.
|
|
|
Post by Christine on Aug 5, 2017 15:44:42 GMT -5
Personally, I'm on the fence with single payer - I have severe misgivings about it (and other forms of social welfare). Yet looking at the account books, it is hard to argue against the fact that countries with socialized medicine are doing much better than the US in terms of what they get for what they pay. The usual rebuttal is "A true free market system would be even better and more efficient!" but to me, that sounds like a refrain of all the true believers in communism who insisted that while the Soviet Union and China and Cuba and other Marxist countries weren't quite there yet, True Communism was just around the corner. This is why, when discussing these sort of issues with Don, I've taken to asking for realistic solutions. I've yet to receive any. The ideology sounds great. The promises of what a true free market will provide sound great. So, how do we get from where we are now, to there, realistically? When it comes to healthcare, I get the sense that the free-market solution would be somewhat like Jaime Lannister's, when he was imprisoned with his cousin Alton and was trying to find a way to escape: Jaime: There is a way, I think. It wasn't possible until now. Alton: What is it? Jaime: It's actually quite simple. Alton: Let me help you. Jaime: You only have to do one thing. Alton: Tell me. Jaime: You'll have to die.
|
|