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Post by nighttimer on Aug 4, 2017 21:12:20 GMT -5
Mmmm hmmm. Seems I can recall a time when you expressed similar cock-eyed optimism that Trump was Toast over "grab 'em by the pussy" and Hillary was a stone cold lock. But you go right on hoping Jeff Flake and Liz Warren join up to introduce bipartisan legislation to outlaw Donald Trump because hoping is all you'll be doing. While east of Arizona, libbruls are drooling in their lattes over Flake's anti-Trump heresy, he's not exactly wowin' it back home where a new poll has his approval rating at 18 percent. Yipes! That's a mighty deep hole to dig out of going into an election year or don't those mooks back in Az. realize what a rock star they've got in Flake? Apparently not.  Flake is a wholly owned subsidary of the Koch Brothers. He is not a guy is not reaching out to The Left. What part of that don't you get? Or does your cock-eyed optimism trump your inpartial reading of the facts? |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 4, 2017 21:42:45 GMT -5
The polls and pundits and Trump himself all thought Clinton would win,too. And actually, she did win the popular vote, if I recall.
But you know, it's kind of hard to read the minds of millions of voters I've never seen and determine their effect on the electoral college.
Whereas I had something to go on with McCain -- not only his speech (in which he said, and pretty strongly, that he wasn't voting for skinny repeal), but also his history. If he just says "that's disturbing," he'll probably stick the party line. But after that speech...nah, I just couldn't see it. He hated the bill, he hates Trump, he thought McConnell was being an ass. He wasn't going there. That's why I called that one right.
Time will tell whether my view of Flake is correct, or yours.
As you just said, and so did I in my previous post, Flake is dead politically unless attitudes towards Trump change in the Republican party. (whereas Conservative voters would LOVE him if he weren't a NeverTrumper.) He's hanging his hat on Trump going down. There is no going back for him. Either he's the beginning of a wave of anti-Trump sentiment in the GOP, or say goodbye to Flake and hello to eight years of Trump.
if GOP sentiment swings against Trump, however, I predict Flake gets a big political shot in the arm.
Yeah, he alone is not enough. But if he pulls some others with him, and they pull some others, then we have something. His colleagues in the Senate do not appear to dislike him, even if the Trump fan club hates him right now. He is not without influence, and he's laying it all out there.
I know I won't convince you. But I'm pretty confident I'm right on Flake, and I choose to be optimistic about anti-Trump sentiment increasing.
ETA:
To be clear: I do not and never did think Flake will suddenly become a liberal. He won't, ever. He'll stand by conservative policy to the end. But I do think his opposition to Trump's dishonesty and incompetence is sincere, and he's not going to shut up about it.
You think that's hypocrisy. I don't.
ETA:
Opinions in a group rarely change all at once on a dime. The first couple of outliers who step forward to say the earth is round or women should have the vote are pretty much always unpopular and get jeered at. But gradually, if they have good arguments on their side and stick to their guns, converts join them. And eventually it gets to be accepted wisdom that the earth is round and women should have the vote.
Jeff Flake is an early, minority critic of Trump among Republicans who don't want to rock the boat and are loathe to cast off a conservative president. So yeah, he's taking the rocks among conservative voters just as such people always do. That doesn't mean they won't ultimately be convinced.
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Post by nighttimer on Aug 4, 2017 21:55:38 GMT -5
The polls and pundits and Trumo himself all thought Clinton would win,too. And actually, she did win the popular vote, if I recall. But you know, it's kind of hard to read the minds of millions of voters I've never seen and determine their effect on the electoral college. Whereas I had something to go on with McCain -- not only his speech (in which he said he wasn't voting for skinny repeal), but also his history. If he just says "that's disturbing," he'll probably stick the party line. But after that speech...nah, I just couldn't see it. He hated the bill, he hates Trump, he thought McConnell was being an ass. He wasn't going there. Time will tell whether my view of Flake is correct, or yours. Speaking of history, it's already demonstrated my view of Flake as a Fake is correct, but good luck with yours.  |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 4, 2017 21:57:15 GMT -5
Well, enjoy all the hate and the looking forward to eight years of Trump.
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Post by Christine on Aug 5, 2017 16:10:48 GMT -5
To tweak it slightly -- there's a huge fire raging out of control. You need as many bodies as you can get to help put the fire out, or else it will spread, killing more people and destroying more homes. You and your friends probably won't be able to stop it without help -- certainly not before it does much more damage. Do you welcome every person who is willing to help you put out the fire, or do you say "nyah, you're an asshole. Fuck you and your "help." Or do you work together on putting out the fire, and work out the other stuff separately? The analogy still isn't perfect because you can continue to oppose Flake's conservative policies to your heart's content. I suggest not that liberals stop doing that -- only that they join hands with him on this one particular point (or at least don't throw rocks at him for it). Use it -- "this isn't about partisan malice -- Flake is as conservative as can be and he thinks Trump is awful." YES. I get the sense that NT is pushing back against some of the real (or perceived) praise for Flake here or elsewhere. And I get that; it is annoying if you look at the whole Flake policy package. But I completely agree with Cass. No praise or likes or twitter follow required, if you don't want to. But. Use this information. I live in a ruby-red county and have ruby-red family members. I'll definitely use it if I can. *eyes brother and brother-in-law* Of course, we need more than Flake and McCain -- a lot more -- but some of the minority opinions might be signaling (finally) and even perhaps encouraging (slowly) a shift in so many GOPs toeing the Trump line, and that's reason to be optimistic. |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 5, 2017 16:34:42 GMT -5
Another thing to use -- Trump's treatment of Sessions. Do I like Sessions? HELL no. But (1) conservatives do, and (2) taking aside one's view on Sessions, it's pretty shoddy for a president to treat his attorney general that way, especially one who's been as loyal to Trump as Sessions has. One can with a clean conscience point out (2), regardless of whether you personally despise Sessions. I think Trump's nasty twitter trolling etc. of Sessions did a lot to get Republican senators' backs up, sent a message that Trump was loyal to no one -- and for sure it bothered a lot of establishment conservatives. As it should. If Trump doesn't like Sessions, he could fire him, but trolling him on twitter and demeaning him? Very unpresidential, in a way the hits home for loyal Republicans. (Not Trump's rabid core base, of course, but they are truly hopeless.) I think we're going to hit a tipping point here, and it's not going to take four years. Trump is not growing into this job. If anything, he's devolving. ETA: According to the NY Times, Pence, Kasich and others seem to be eyeing the possibility of running in 2020. They know. Oh, they know. It might take voters time to catch up, but they will, and the GOP is preparing itself. www.nytimes.com/2016/07/21/us/politics/gop-2020-presidential-race.html |
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Post by nighttimer on Aug 6, 2017 20:06:33 GMT -5
To tweak it slightly -- there's a huge fire raging out of control. You need as many bodies as you can get to help put the fire out, or else it will spread, killing more people and destroying more homes. You and your friends probably won't be able to stop it without help -- certainly not before it does much more damage. Do you welcome every person who is willing to help you put out the fire, or do you say "nyah, you're an asshole. Fuck you and your "help." Or do you work together on putting out the fire, and work out the other stuff separately? The analogy still isn't perfect because you can continue to oppose Flake's conservative policies to your heart's content. I suggest not that liberals stop doing that -- only that they join hands with him on this one particular point (or at least don't throw rocks at him for it). Use it -- "this isn't about partisan malice -- Flake is as conservative as can be and he thinks Trump is awful." YES. I get the sense that NT is pushing back against some of the real (or perceived) praise for Flake here or elsewhere. And I get that; it is annoying if you look at the whole Flake policy package. But I completely agree with Cass. No praise or likes or twitter follow required, if you don't want to. But. Use this information. I live in a ruby-red county and have ruby-red family members. I'll definitely use it if I can. *eyes brother and brother-in-law* Of course, we need more than Flake and McCain -- a lot more -- but some of the minority opinions might be signaling (finally) and even perhaps encouraging (slowly) a shift in so many GOPs toeing the Trump line, and that's reason to be optimistic. Optimism is fine. Personally though, I like my dissenters from party orthodoxy to have the resume and accomplishments to back up their heresy. Flake comes up short on that end. Hit me back when the results match Flake's rhetoric. So far, they don't. |
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Post by robeiae on Dec 5, 2017 21:05:12 GMT -5
The responses are...interesting.
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