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Post by mikey on Sept 8, 2017 20:19:09 GMT -5
I agree with you Don, it's amazing. And I would like to see the percentage rates of the gen pop. As far as my "derisive only" comment, that has to do with the fact that I don't believe that "only" 127,500 students would cost the USA "three quarters of a trillion". I think you know how my advanced degree is coming. I was speaking of this statement of yours. "Also, the article goes on to tell us that only 17% of DACA recipients are on track to complete an advanced degree. Nothing great that I can see." Nothing great? Non-natives, most speaking a non-native language, earning 50% more advanced degrees than gen pop? What do you call it, then? Okay, I apologize for how that came across. The way I came across deterred from my point that the three quarters of a trillion seems insane to be caused by the departure 127,500 DACA students. Regardless of what happens to these students, those supposed jobs will still be there and need to be filled by somebody.
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Post by mikey on Sept 8, 2017 20:20:10 GMT -5
As far as my "derisive only" comment, that has to do with the fact that I don't believe that "only" 127,500 students would cost the USA "three quarters of a trillion". Where are you getting the idea that it's ONLY the advanced degree students whose economic impact is being counted in that figure? Please point that out in the article. Angie, the part where the article was using the H1B stats, along with the 17% to come up with their conclusion. There was no mention that I saw regarding the other 83% of DACAs.
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Post by Don on Sept 8, 2017 21:01:06 GMT -5
I was speaking of this statement of yours. "Also, the article goes on to tell us that only 17% of DACA recipients are on track to complete an advanced degree. Nothing great that I can see." Nothing great? Non-natives, most speaking a non-native language, earning 50% more advanced degrees than gen pop? What do you call it, then? Okay, I apologize for how that came across. The way I came across deterred from my point that the three quarters of a trillion seems insane to be caused by the departure 127,500 DACA students. Regardless of what happens to these students, those supposed jobs will still be there and need to be filled by somebody. You're making the common assumption that the economy is a zero-sum game, when in reality it's dynamic and organic. Jobs and the corresponding skill sets required to fill those positions grow and wither constantly, and some jobs end up creating more jobs, or even new industries. Individuals are not jigsaw puzzle pieces. Here's a thought. What if some DACA research biologist, deported back to Krapistan because that's where he was born, is thereby deprived of the opportunity to make a cancer breakthrough only he dreamed of? How's that idea of "plug-n-play" individuals workin' out for ya?
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Post by Christine on Sept 8, 2017 21:30:21 GMT -5
And how's your advanced degree coming along? I couldn't resist: But really for me, it's like Vince's analogy. I really do not give a damn how "valuable" these young people are to our economy, though many/most will certainly be. It's about what's right, and just, and human.
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Post by Don on Sept 9, 2017 6:46:33 GMT -5
Please don't get me wrong. As a non-believer, I don't support any state exclusionary practices. At the same time, I think it's critical to counter the claims that said exclusionary practices are in any way, shape or form of any benefit to society, and to prove that isolationism and nationalism are ever and always economically damaging.
You'd think that conservatives, who can easily spot the other economic problems with countries like Cuba and North Korea, could add 2+2 and get 4 in this case as well, but their ruling class has them acting against their own economic self-interest, as usual. So they scream to enact the same economic isolationism that has cost those countries so dearly.
Once again, economic illiteracy pays off for the ruling class.
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Post by michaelw on Sept 11, 2017 4:29:05 GMT -5
The administration's argument w/ regard to DACA seems ridiculous to me.
When they wanted their travel ban, they were essentially arguing that this was a legitimate executive order because the president retains broad authority over immigration matters.
Now, with DACA, their hands are suddenly tied. LOL.
You know, the ICE can only deport so many people every year, only a fraction of the total number of people living in the country illegally. So the fact that DACA beneficiaries, of all people, should become the focus of the immigration policy debate strikes me as completely senseless. What happened to Trump's complaints about Mexicans who are rapists and bringing drugs into the country?
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Post by Amadan on Sept 11, 2017 5:41:33 GMT -5
Er, H1B holders should have a nearly 100% employment rate by definition, since you have to have been sponsored for a job by the company that is paying for your H1B.
I assume by "advanced degree" they mean post-bachelors. Since only about 8% of the general population has a graduate degree, 17% of DACA recipients being in graduate school would actually make them more educated than average.
To be honest, I am not wildly enthusiastic about DACA myself since I have a bit of a problem with the idea that anyone who wants to come here (or stay here) should be able to, which seems to be the subtext of a lot of DACA advocacy. That said, I see little point in deporting people who have grown up here and are now for all practical purposes Americans. There should be a fast-track for naturalization for these cases, and if you want to take the "stricter immigration policy" line, then a fast-track for deporting the ones convicted of felonies. (Which is probably a very small number, so not really meaningful in a statistical sense but would satisfy anti-immigrationists' sense of justice.)
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Post by Deleted on Sept 11, 2017 8:34:34 GMT -5
Absolutely, there should be a fast track to naturalization for people in this situation. It seems a no-brainer to me.
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Post by Vince524 on Sept 11, 2017 11:50:32 GMT -5
If I were in charge of the US, I would give everyone here illegally a window to register. If they've been here a long time, no serious crimes(Looking for violent crimes, not traffic infractions, or other little things like say pot possession.) They get a pathway, possible fine (Not heavy fine, more for the point) and probation before they become citizens.
If they were children, brought here by an adult, no fine, probation only if they've committed some crime. Younger kids that are still kids (Say brought here a 2, now is 10.) fast track.
Others who came over in their 20's or 30s may have to wait another 10 years to become citizens, but we don't kick them out if they haven't done anything since. But they have to show they're contributing. The probation is because some may have committed crimes and it takes awhile to find out. But they're out of shadows.
If you have a violent past, deport, and if you come back after a deportation, prison.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 14, 2017 9:06:11 GMT -5
Stay tuned -- Donald Trump may come to a deal with the Democrats on the Dreamers. www.cnn.com/2017/09/13/politics/chuck-schumer-nancy-pelosi-donald-trump/index.htmlHis core voters would hate this, of course, but I believe most Americans would heartily endorse it. And I don't mean just liberals -- conservatives I know all support the Dreamers, and most are not crazy about the damn wall. I mean, I know my conservative friends tend either towards the middle or the libertarian end of things, but still -- I think it is a very small minority that has their hearts set on booting out Dreamers and spending a fortune on a wall.)
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Post by Vince524 on Sept 14, 2017 10:58:30 GMT -5
Yeah, he's doing an about face. And I mentioned his earlier tweets that broadcast it. He may actually do a couple of decent things.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 14, 2017 11:57:57 GMT -5
Let's see. I'm not counting on anything until it is official -- the 180 about-face is too sudden and weird for me to trust it before it is set in stone. I am still doing my training to help the Dreamers on the assumption it may be needed.
If they do need help, it will be fast -- the deadline for many of them to renew their status is October 5, so there is no time to dither. Legal organizations are, as we speak, setting up clinics for the Dreamers to go where we will help them with their paperwork, and approximately 5000 attorneys are undertaking crash training sessions so we can participate. People like me (who don't specialize in immigration normally) will help with more routine stuff; experienced immigration attorneys will be on hand to help those with special issues.
If it ends up not being necessary, great. But we're not taking the chance of another possible abrupt about-face. These kids' lives are at stake. Thet don't deserve to slip between the cracks.
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Post by Vince524 on Sept 14, 2017 12:08:10 GMT -5
I wouldn't trust anything coming out of Trump until it's in stone, carried down a mountain by a dude with a beard who parts a sea.
Having said that, he did signal it with that tweet I mentioned, so there's reason for optimism.
He speaks in ways that rev up the alt right, but if he makes some choices from the center, great.
He's still an ass.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 14, 2017 12:30:15 GMT -5
I agree, Vince.
I will tell you one thing I fear very much, especially in light of the (IMO, rather bizarre) turnaround on this issue --
I'm afraid Trump (and/or people in his administration/posse -- Sessions, Bannon, Lizard Boy Miller) are trying to get those of us who oppose him to scatter and waste our energy and resources. For example, on just this one issue, an ASTOUNDING number of attorneys are rapidly getting trained, donating their (limited) free time to the training and the clinics, plus donating money to fund obtaining clinic space and for administrative stuff. And that's happened with regard to other issues -- the immigration ban, for example, when suddenly a bunch of Green Card holders and others who had every right to be here were suddenly stranded at airports. I'm boggled and humbled by just how many are willing to give significant amounts of their time and money to help.
But we may well, for some issues, find that we've done so for a problem that then evaporates. Yet we cannot simply wait and see what happens, because if we do, a bunch of deserving, innocent people would get royally and permanently fucked by the sudden deadlines rearing up out of nowhere. It's not like these edicts have given some lead time for people to figure out what to do. If this goes through, they either get their paperwork filed by October 5, or they get deported. We can't wait until October 1 to see what happens -- it takes time to mobilize and train people to help and get the clinics set up.
These fire drills are exhausting -- they'll be even more exhausting if we expend all that energy and money and it ends up being unneeded. And yet we must do it. I wouldn't be able to sleep if this edict went through and these poor kids were deported, and I could have helped even one of them stay. I know a lot of us feel the same.
I also wonder whether Trump isn't doing this to jerk Sessions around.
The only thing I can hope is that however it squares out, it won't end up screwing over good people for some asshole political reason. I'm happy to put in my time and effort, even unnecessarily, as long as that doesn't happen.
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