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Post by Angie on Sept 19, 2017 21:29:38 GMT -5
Saw this come across my FB feed today. The gist of the story is that a dude wearing a Nazi armband was spotted on a bus, allegedly harassing a black passenger. Instead of, you know, calling the police, another passenger took a photo of the guy and posted it to social media. Someone alerted an antifa group about it, and the group proceeded to go all vigilante justice and hunt the guy down to punch him out. The armband guy allegedly also claimed he was armed, so this could have gone a much different (and more tragic) way. As I mentioned in another thread, I understand where antifa is coming from...but I just cannot get behind vigilante "justice." |
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Post by poetinahat on Sept 19, 2017 23:13:16 GMT -5
I'm with you, Angie - what needs our support is the rule of law, and the Constitution.
And that is not in any way to defend Nazis, or hate speech as "free speech", or intimidating behaviour.
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Post by Vince524 on Sept 20, 2017 7:28:24 GMT -5
More and more, people are seeing rule of law or due process as impediments to justice, not tools for attaining it.
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Post by Amadan on Sept 20, 2017 9:27:05 GMT -5
I feel about this the way I feel about any form of vigilante justice - as a society, we have good reason to prohibit it, but on an individual level, it's hard to muster a lot of sympathy for someone who goes out of his way to provoke that kind of response.
Ultimately, though, as satisfying as it may be to punch Nazis, that's what they want - a breakdown in the social order so that it becomes acceptable to "win" your arguments by having more force at your disposal. They are, of course, hoping that their numbers will grow and prevail.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 20, 2017 11:32:54 GMT -5
I agree with all of you.
I have zero sympathy with the neo-Nazi himself, mind you. But hunting him down to punch him -- yes, not the way to handle it.
To note: I'm all up for calling him out for his assholery. If there are photos or videos of his bad behavior, I'd be up for shaming him, and if his behavior crossed over into illegality, of course I am up for reporting him. And absolutely I'm up for intervening while he is harassing someone. But hunting him down to assault him is a bridge too far in the wrong direction. Not for his sake -- for the sake of the rule of law.
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Post by Vince524 on Sept 20, 2017 12:06:59 GMT -5
It's not about sympathy for a Nazi. If you make it okay to punch a Nazi, then it becomes okay to punch anyone who you think is a Nazi.
And not all bad people are Nazis. Soon it'll be okay to physically assault anyone with the wrong political ideas, social ideas, etc.
Next thing you know, everyone will be kung fu fighting.
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Post by Angie on Sept 20, 2017 13:48:20 GMT -5
It's not about sympathy for a Nazi. If you make it okay to punch a Nazi, then it becomes okay to punch anyone who you think is a Nazi. And not all bad people are Nazis. Soon it'll be okay to physically assault anyone with the wrong political ideas, social ideas, etc. Next thing you know, everyone will be kung fu fighting. This, plus: There's a reason we don't allow vigilante justice anymore. Think back to the Boston Marathon bombing - when social media was all abuzz with theories about this or that "suspect." People basically started a witch hunt instead of letting the authorities do their jobs. Now imagine they'd also decided to form a mob and go beat the shit out of - or worse - the people they thought were guilty. I won't deny there's a little thrill of schadenfreude when I see a Nazi punched - but I also don't want it to be okay to punch people we don't agree with. |
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Post by Angie on Sept 20, 2017 14:03:11 GMT -5
And...I'm being excoriated on FB for expressing this view. People make me tired.
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Post by Amadan on Sept 20, 2017 14:08:53 GMT -5
And...I'm being excoriated on FB for expressing this view. People make me tired. I've got a FB friend who just pulled out the "If you didn't vote for Clinton you are responsible for putting a literal Nazi in the White House, how can you live with yourself?" Yeah. Makes me tired too. It's why I am tired of SJWs, even my well-meaning friends. They think they are the good guys, because they are fighting literal Nazis, while I see them as just as capable of becoming literal Red Guards or literal sans culottes. |
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Post by nighttimer on Sept 20, 2017 14:25:00 GMT -5
That was then...  ...and this is now.  Trump says he will totally destroy North Korea. Republicans are trying again to gut Obamacare. Mexico has suffered a devastating earthquake. The 49ers and Bengals haven't scored a touchdown. Yet I'm supposed to be concerned because some dope with a Nazi armband got his lights punched out? Pass.  |
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Post by Amadan on Sept 20, 2017 14:41:40 GMT -5
Actually, there was an issue of Captain America from (IIRC) the 80s in which there was a white supremacist (not sure if he actually wore Nazi regalia, but he was certainly implied to be a Nazi) who was stirring up folks and things were about to get violent. Cap shows up, tells off the Nazi, and then tells off the mob that was about to beat the Nazi.
So yeah, there's a big difference between (a) Punching Hitler; (b) Strawman caricatures of people who are offended at punching Hitler; (c) Sanctioning mob violence against people with noxious views.
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Post by nighttimer on Sept 20, 2017 14:46:36 GMT -5
Cool story, bro. Still don't care about Nazis getting punched.  |
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Post by maxinquaye on Sept 20, 2017 15:07:06 GMT -5
Still don't care about Nazis getting punched. Me neither, tbh. They put a medal on my grandfathers chest for killing lots of Nazis. That was the right thing to do. The funniest incident was when someone objected to punching Nazis by labelling that Orwellian. Orwell, of course, volunteered in 1936 to go to Catalunya and kill Spanish fascists. So, I don't think he would have minded punching Nazis either. If people publicly align with a murderous genocidal movement, I hope the punch knocks some sense into them. |
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Post by Amadan on Sept 20, 2017 15:26:33 GMT -5
Yes, it was the right thing to do to kill Nazis who were soldiers during wartime. You'll notice the Allies did not conduct a mass execution of all Nazis after the war. Only the ones who were convicted of war crimes, in court.
So, it's okay to punch anyone who's dressed like a Nazi. It's okay to mob up against white supremacists and fight them. Is that what you are advocating?
This isn't about hurting Nazis' feelings or whether anyone thinks Nazis deserve a beating. It's about whether there is some category of people so heinous we can just suspend the law and say "Nah, anything goes." If in your opinion, Nazis fall into that category, I assume so would members of the KKK. How about rapists? Child molesters? Fair game for people to just go attack them without the tedious formality of legal process?
How about that period of time when most Americans would have said the same about dope-smoking hippies? Or gays? Or communists? Or civil rights advocates? Or abolitionists?
The point here is not that gays and civil rights activists are morally equivalent to Nazis, it is that if you let popular sentiment dictate who is an acceptable target, you are at the mercy of whoever is in power if that turns out to be you.
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Post by nighttimer on Sept 20, 2017 15:58:00 GMT -5
You're right. I've seen the error of my ways. Punching Nazis. BAD! Majorly uncool! Except...it's just really really hard to reconcile turning the other cheek and ignoring any motherfucker would would wear a symbol that glorifies this.  Aw, never mind. Nazis are scum. Punch away. Maybe when they wake up they can join the human race again and not get punched out for being Nazi scum. |
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