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Post by Vince524 on Sept 21, 2017 7:32:26 GMT -5
What if the Nazi you're punching isn't a Nazi after all?
Wouldn't it also be better to try and get someone who seems to think a certain way to rethink how they feel?
And I can not feel overly bad about some asshole getting punched because they're an asshole without thinking it was okay to punch him. (Or her)
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Post by Deleted on Sept 21, 2017 8:04:59 GMT -5
I'm guessing it's a fruitless task to try getting a Nazi to think differently, unless perhaps the Nazi is very young and has only been surrounded with other Nazis all his life and so was never exposed to other ideas. But I am 100% in agreement with you here: My "don't randomly punch Nazis" motto is not about them. Fuck them. It's about the rest of us and the kind of society we want. Isolate them. Rebuke them. Mock them. Scorn them. But leave the punching to them unless they punch first. (That said, I have to admit I can totally sympathize with losing it and punching a Nazi when they are in the middle of yelling hateful things on a street corner. Better to film them and plaster it on social media. But I get the sentiment entirely. And if they're coming at you with fists raised yelling "jews must die", go ahead and punch them.) ETA: If you punch this fucker, in this immediate situation, I gotta say I for one will not be calling for your head on a platter. It's not that I'd officially condone violence in this situation, but heat of the moment rage at this asshole I can totally grok. www.rawstory.com/2017/09/all-hell-breaks-loose-at-michigan-racism-protest-after-white-man-shouts-shut-the-fck-up-ngga/amp/But if you hunt him down later from his photos on social media in order to punch him, it's another matter. The guy is still a fucking asshole, mind you, but it is no longer the heat of the moment so you no longer have that excuse for your violence. Retweet and shame him instead. Condemn his words.
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Post by Amadan on Sept 21, 2017 11:23:59 GMT -5
You're all addressing the points we've already agreed on (and I never mentioned the antifa). Pretty much everyone agrees that punching an asshole in the heat of the moment is an understandable human reaction, and a natural consequence of being an asshole, but not something we should actually make legal.
Max and some others (not necessarily here, but in a lot of places where this is being discussed, including by some of my FB friends) seems to be carving out a special exception for Nazis. Like, it should be legal to punch them, period.And when I point out why I think that's a bad idea, everyone seems reluctant to address the point, just implies we shouldn't be sympathetic to Nazis (um, I'm not) or describes ACTUAL self defense situations or World War II, as opposed to random swastika-wearing assholes on the street.
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Post by Vince524 on Sept 21, 2017 11:48:15 GMT -5
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Post by nighttimer on Sept 21, 2017 13:14:03 GMT -5
And they blame Black people. And they blame Latinos. And they blame the Jews. And they do more than blame them. They harass, hassle, intimidate, drive out, beat up, rape, burn, stab, shoot, lynch and kill them. I do not give a fuck about anyone who hears what White Nationalists say and hear something that appeals to them. What's the appeal? The appeal of one race being supreme and others being subhuman mud people? The appeal of not having to take responsibility for their circumstances and demanding someone to blame for their own failures? The appeal of being told it's not your fault you didn't get that job or get in that school, but if wasn't for that damn Black person that did, you certainly would have? There is NO good reason to be a racist. There is NO justification to be a supremacist. NONE.How dare you even suggest the problem here is there's not enough tolerance for the intolerant? They are dedicated to assuring my inferiority, my degradation, my subjugation. I will never turn the other cheek for any asshole who wants nothing more than to deny me my happiness, my liberty and my very life. A pedophile may stop molesting children, but they will always be a child molester. Time doesn't erase that stain. It is as permanent as a tattoo. You can be an ex-Nazi or an ex-Klansman, but you'll never be totally free of having been one in the first place. You were attracted to hate and you'll always be scum. Reformed scum perhaps, but scum nevertheless. I can forgive an enemy who no longer is one, but I can't forget what made them my enemy in the first place. Fuck those people.
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Post by robeiae on Sept 21, 2017 14:05:34 GMT -5
I question the idea that "Nazis" are a homogeneous group, with regard to their ideologies, their supposed plans, and so forth. I'm not talking degrees of badness here, but much of this conversation--not unlike a previous one--seems predicated on a view wherein there is an actual continuum from historical Nazi Germany to self-proclaimed (and sometime not self-proclaimed, but merely labelled by someone else) Nazis today in the US.
I say "question," but that's just me trying to be mild, really. I think a lot of this talk about the threat of Nazis is so overblown as to actually be laughable. How many political offices do self-proclaimed Nazis actually hold? How many mainstream orgs are there who actually support them and their ambitions in full? Home many civilians have they actually killed?
But jihadists aren't as bad? WTF? Seriously. Sure, jihadists aren't as bad as Hitler and company, but those guys ARE ALL FUCKING DEAD. As compared to the half-witted douchebags jumping around claiming to be Nazis now, the jihadist crowd is made up of rocket scientists, imo. And far more of a actual threat.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 21, 2017 14:33:43 GMT -5
You're all addressing the points we've already agreed on (and I never mentioned the antifa). Pretty much everyone agrees that punching an asshole in the heat of the moment is an understandable human reaction, and a natural consequence of being an asshole, but not something we should actually make legal. Max and some others (not necessarily here, but in a lot of places where this is being discussed, including by some of my FB friends) seems to be carving out a special exception for Nazis. Like, it should be legal to punch them, period.And when I point out why I think that's a bad idea, everyone seems reluctant to address the point, just implies we shouldn't be sympathetic to Nazis (um, I'm not) or describes ACTUAL self defense situations or World War II, as opposed to random swastika-wearing assholes on the street. I'm actually not disagreeing with you. If I'm not misunderstanding you, I think we're on the same page with this. All I'm saying is that (1) you can agree with what Max and NT say about neo-Nazis (as I pretty much do -- hence why I mentioned them being worse IMO than Antifa) and yet still agree with you (and Angie, et al.) that we shouldn't go about punching them without provocation. (2) there is a distinction to punching a neo-Nazi under threat, provocation, heat of the moment, etc., and doing it in cold blood -- or making it legal, and (3) to make that distinction is not, at all, to condone or sympathize with neo-Nazis.
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Post by Amadan on Sept 21, 2017 16:42:20 GMT -5
I question the idea that "Nazis" are a homogeneous group, with regard to their ideologies, their supposed plans, and so forth. I'm not talking degrees of badness here, but much of this conversation--not unlike a previous one--seems predicated on a view wherein there is an actual continuum from historical Nazi Germany to self-proclaimed (and sometime not self-proclaimed, but merely labelled by someone else) Nazis today in the US. I say "question," but that's just me trying to be mild, really. I think a lot of this talk about the threat of Nazis is so overblown as to actually be laughable. How many political offices do self-proclaimed Nazis actually hold? How many mainstream orgs are there who actually support them and their ambitions in full? Home many civilians have they actually killed? But jihadists aren't as bad? WTF? Seriously. Sure, jihadists aren't as bad as Hitler and company, but those guys ARE ALL FUCKING DEAD. As compared to the half-witted douchebags jumping around claiming to be Nazis now, the jihadist crowd is made up of rocket scientists, imo. And far more of a actual threat. Well, I agree that a lot of modern "Nazis" have probably never so much as cracked open Mein Kampf and couldn't tell you the second thing about National Socialism. All they know is the first thing ("Blame the Jews"). They're the disaffected youngsters seeking an edgy, outrageous movement to give them a focus for their fear and discontent. Once upon a time, they would have joined the Weathermen or started carrying around Mao's Little Red Book. Today, they put on swastikas and shave their heads. In the Middle East (and sometimes in the West), if they are Muslims, they start watching jihadi videos and then they start thinking that going to Syria to fight infidels sounds like God's work. This is the sort of thing stupid, disaffected, rootless young men (mostly) do when they lack a moral center. Nazis are sufficiently old news that they can become a sexy stylish aesthetic for Japanese anime. But... while I agree with you that the hysteria over Nazis is out of proportion - no, they are not going to become an actual political party winning elections, and no, Trump is not a Nazi - they aren't harmless either. The fact that they are more brazen and seem to have the backing (or at least tolerance) of powerful people means they are shifting the Overton window. Not so much literal Nazis, but white supremacists in general. Hence the rise of the Alt-Right. Many elements of which carefully distance themselves from Nazis and white supremacy, but that whole constellation of ideologies is on the rise. They bear watching. But, no, you don't get to attack people no matter how loathsome. You don't get to attack a convicted child molester in the street if he's served his sentence and not doing anything. You don't get to attack someone who is screaming "Death to Jews!" whether he's a Nazi or a radical Islamicist. You don't get to attack men wearing white hoods, or black masks, or gay people, or anyone carrying a sign whatever that sign says. You can despise them, protest them, follow them around (in public) and scream at them, but there is no category of person so evil that laws do not apply to them. ETA: I am not putting gays in the category of "evil people" - my point is that they are also a category that was once considered fair game by many for physical assault.
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Post by nighttimer on Sept 21, 2017 16:45:03 GMT -5
I question the idea that "Nazis" are a homogeneous group, with regard to their ideologies, their supposed plans, and so forth. I'm not talking degrees of badness here, but much of this conversation--not unlike a previous one--seems predicated on a view wherein there is an actual continuum from historical Nazi Germany to self-proclaimed (and sometime not self-proclaimed, but merely labelled by someone else) Nazis today in the US. I say "question," but that's just me trying to be mild, really. I think a lot of this talk about the threat of Nazis is so overblown as to actually be laughable. How many political offices do self-proclaimed Nazis actually hold? How many mainstream orgs are there who actually support them and their ambitions in full? Home many civilians have they actually killed? But jihadists aren't as bad? WTF? Seriously. Sure, jihadists aren't as bad as Hitler and company, but those guys ARE ALL FUCKING DEAD. As compared to the half-witted douchebags jumping around claiming to be Nazis now, the jihadist crowd is made up of rocket scientists, imo. And far more of a actual threat. No. Jihadists AREN'T as bad. Now whenever who-the-hell-ever it is who leads ISIS actually forms a real Islamic State and then starts building a military machine that can conquer the world, then we can talk. Right now? It's a bullshit comparison trying to conflate today's boogeyman into tomorrow's Fourth Reich. That's what is so overblown as to be laughable. Or it would be, but only Mel Brooks has ever made Nazis funny and you're no Mel Brooks. Nazis suck. Full-fledged ones, wannabees and just trying it out ones. They ALL suck. As far as the threat these "half-witted douchebags" claiming to be Nazis today, sure Adolf Hitler has been really dead for a really, really long time. Yet despite being worm food long ago, 72 years later Hitler's ideas and supremacist rhetoric has found a fertile breeding ground here on American soil and with a sympathetic enabler in the White House. Except for getting your fucking lights punched out, there's never been a better time to be an American Nazi.
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Post by Amadan on Sept 21, 2017 16:54:37 GMT -5
Are we talking "bad" in terms of how many people they've actually killed? Or "bad" in terms of what they believe?
Very few of today's Nazis have killed anyone, while many of today's jihadists have. Historical Nazis killed more people than jihadists ever have or are likely to, but it's certainly not for lack of desire or effort on the part of the jihadists.
It's frankly stupid to try to set up Nazis as some uniquely evil category of monstrous horror beyond the ken of all evils ever in human history. There have been many genocides, many horrific ideologies, many groups of people willing and able to commit unspeakable atrocities against populations they hated. The Nazis are exceptional only in terms of sheer numbers, which they achieved only because they were the first such group to run a nation-state with modern technology.
That makes them a horrible historical evil and an enduring modern evil. But anyone who wears a swastika is not necessarily more evil than everyone else on Earth who doesn't. It's not like making a pact with Lucifer where your soul instantly goes to hell. Setting them up as that sort of absolute, unmatched evil gives them far too much power.
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Post by robeiae on Sept 21, 2017 17:20:20 GMT -5
But... while I agree with you that the hysteria over Nazis is out of proportion - no, they are not going to become an actual political party winning elections, and no, Trump is not a Nazi - they aren't harmless either. The fact that they are more brazen and seem to have the backing (or at least tolerance) of powerful people means they are shifting the Overton window. Not so much literal Nazis, but white supremacists in general. Hence the rise of the Alt-Right. Many elements of which carefully distance themselves from Nazis and white supremacy, but that whole constellation of ideologies is on the rise. They bear watching. I don't think they're harmless, at all. They're dangerous; they are willing to promote and use violence against their perceived enemies and their usage of Nazi terminology and ideology--even when they're largely clueless on the last, apart from the hate--is bad news, especially if it leads to more of them. So I agree, this isn't something to ignore.
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Post by robeiae on Sept 21, 2017 17:24:21 GMT -5
No. Jihadists AREN'T as bad. Now whenever who-the-hell-ever it is who leads ISIS actually forms a real Islamic State and then starts building a military machine that can conquer the world, then we can talk. Right now? It's a bullshit comparison trying to conflate today's boogeyman into tomorrow's Fourth Reich. Can you read? I just said that Hitler and company ARE WORSE than today's jihadists. Yet you reply as if I said exactly the opposite.
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Post by Vince524 on Sept 21, 2017 18:26:44 GMT -5
And they blame Black people. And they blame Latinos. And they blame the Jews. And they do more than blame them. They harass, hassle, intimidate, drive out, beat up, rape, burn, stab, shoot, lynch and kill them. I do not give a fuck about anyone who hears what White Nationalists say and hear something that appeals to them. What's the appeal? The appeal of one race being supreme and others being subhuman mud people? The appeal of not having to take responsibility for their circumstances and demanding someone to blame for their own failures? The appeal of being told it's not your fault you didn't get that job or get in that school, but if wasn't for that damn Black person that did, you certainly would have? There is NO good reason to be a racist. There is NO justification to be a supremacist. NONE.How dare you even suggest the problem here is there's not enough tolerance for the intolerant? They are dedicated to assuring my inferiority, my degradation, my subjugation. I will never turn the other cheek for any asshole who wants nothing more than to deny me my happiness, my liberty and my very life. A pedophile may stop molesting children, but they will always be a child molester. Time doesn't erase that stain. It is as permanent as a tattoo. You can be an ex-Nazi or an ex-Klansman, but you'll never be totally free of having been one in the first place. You were attracted to hate and you'll always be scum. Reformed scum perhaps, but scum nevertheless. I can forgive an enemy who no longer is one, but I can't forget what made them my enemy in the first place. Fuck those people. I never suggested any such thing. People who are attracted to hate often are broken inside. They may have been raised among it. They often have plenty of legitimate reasons for being angry and get sucked in because they're looking for someone to blame. It's not acceptable, but to say that a person like that is irredeemable is wrong. There's also a big difference between someone who physically assaults someone because of their race, religion, orientation, etc and one who is too wrapped up in their own demons to realize that their siding with that sort of person. A guy who, as a neo nazi, hurt another person has a lot father to go down the road of redemption than someone who identified because they just didn't want to see the ugliness of that symbol, and fooled themselves into thinking they weren't all that bad. The bottom line is, punching a nazi may feel good. I'd be tempted to do it myself. But what good does it do?
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Post by Vince524 on Sept 21, 2017 18:29:05 GMT -5
Jihadists vs Nazis? Are we really getting into a debate over which form of evil is worse?
Can't we just all agree none of them get invited to the Collin's Gate Christmas party?
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Post by nighttimer on Sept 21, 2017 21:31:15 GMT -5
No. Jihadists AREN'T as bad. Now whenever who-the-hell-ever it is who leads ISIS actually forms a real Islamic State and then starts building a military machine that can conquer the world, then we can talk. Right now? It's a bullshit comparison trying to conflate today's boogeyman into tomorrow's Fourth Reich. Can you read? I just said that Hitler and company ARE WORSE than today's jihadists. Yet you reply as if I said exactly the opposite. Yeah, I can read, but you don't read your own posts. Maybe Jihadists are more of an actual threat--to your ass. Not so much to mine. Those White extremists you dismiss as half-witted douchebags have been spilling blood and taking lives for YEARS. I haven't read anything about members of ISIS marching down through any streets in this country waving flags, armed to the teeth, chanting "Jews will not replace us!' or driving any cars into a crowd of counter-protesters. Are you reading something different on Trump's Twitter feed? What you dub "a actual threat" is merely hyped-up fear mongering. The true imminent threat is much closer to home.
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