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Post by nighttimer on Sept 21, 2017 22:11:10 GMT -5
Now do rage some more. All this projecting is very illustrative. Or, let the people capable of reasoned discourse converse, since your contributions are clearly not meant as dialog, but an attempt to escalate every interaction into bellicose histrionics. I'm not projecting. You're just insignificant. But I'll try being nicer if you'll try being smarter.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 21, 2017 22:17:54 GMT -5
MOD NOTE: How about if you both go back to talking about the thread topic instead of one another.
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Post by Angie on Sept 22, 2017 1:57:08 GMT -5
Maybe Jihadists are more of an actual threat--to your ass. Not so much to mine. Those White extremists you dismiss as half-witted douchebags have been spilling blood and taking lives for YEARS. I haven't read anything about members of ISIS marching down through any streets in this country waving flags, armed to the teeth, chanting "Jews will not replace us!' or driving any cars into a crowd of counter-protesters. Are you reading something different on Trump's Twitter feed? What you dub "a actual threat" is merely hyped-up fear mongering. The true imminent threat is much closer to home. I think you're both right here - U.S. deaths from right-wing vs. Islamist extremists is damned near neck and neck - 47% to 53%, according to Politico. I have zero sympathy for anyone spouting white supremacy, and I definitely understand the urge to knock them the hell out. The thing that bugs me about the original story is that people hunted this guy down in order to punch him. That shifts from heat-of-the-moment self defense to premeditated assault. But I've been accused this week of being a Nazi sympathizer and a hater of LGBT/PoC because I don't believe in mob justice, so what do I know?
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Post by robeiae on Sept 22, 2017 6:06:51 GMT -5
I think you're both right here - U.S. deaths from right-wing vs. Islamist extremists is damned near neck and neck - 47% to 53%, according to Politico. I have zero sympathy for anyone spouting white supremacy, and I definitely understand the urge to knock them the hell out. The thing that bugs me about the original story is that people hunted this guy down in order to punch him. That shifts from heat-of-the-moment self defense to premeditated assault. But I've been accused this week of being a Nazi sympathizer and a hater of LGBT/PoC because I don't believe in mob justice, so what do I know? Moving from "Nazi" to "white extremist" changes the conversation, because though certainty this current crop of self-styled Nazis are white extremists (or right-wing extremists), not all of the white extremists are Nazis. Regardless, the threat posed by the jihadist crowd goes well past US borders and has impacted American lives beyond the same, from Benghazi to Paris to Bali. And again, to be clear, the Third Reich--the German Nazis of the thirties and forties--killed millions of innocent people in horrible ways, based on a heinous ideology. And they wanted to rule the world, thus being the cause of millions of more deaths in war. It's tough for any group to be as bad as that. For all of the destruction and deaths caused by the jihadists, they're not in the same league yet, though it's not for a lack of trying. Because let's be clear about them, too: they's just as soon put everyone to the sword who isn't willing to follow their version of Islam to the letter (a particularly distressing issue for over half of the world's population: women). And jihadist attacks in the US and Europe are being spawned by the larger group, directly or indirectly.
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Post by nighttimer on Sept 22, 2017 11:52:58 GMT -5
Maybe Jihadists are more of an actual threat--to your ass. Not so much to mine. Those White extremists you dismiss as half-witted douchebags have been spilling blood and taking lives for YEARS. I haven't read anything about members of ISIS marching down through any streets in this country waving flags, armed to the teeth, chanting "Jews will not replace us!' or driving any cars into a crowd of counter-protesters. Are you reading something different on Trump's Twitter feed? What you dub "a actual threat" is merely hyped-up fear mongering. The true imminent threat is much closer to home. I think you're both right here - U.S. deaths from right-wing vs. Islamist extremists is damned near neck and neck - 47% to 53%, according to Politico. This part from your link gets to the crux of my point: It's impossible to minimize how dangerous homegrown radicialized Islamic extremists are as the slaughters in Orlando, Sacramento and Fort Hood amply demonstrate. Yet, most Islamic extremists are not overt and conspicuous in their commitment to jihad. Nazis, KKK, and other White extremist/nationalist/supremacist are in their vile beliefs. They rock the swastikas, wear the uniform, add the ink, grow the Hitler 'stache and espouse the ideology. Plus, they do in out loud and in public. All of which attracts idiots, losers, failures, and haters. Same as radical Islam, but out in the open because everybody loves a parade. I don't believe in mob justice either and I do understand the urge to knock out Nazis. I wouldn't do it myself, but then everybody isn't as easygoing as I am. Folks are getting tired of this goose-stepping, "Sieg Heil" Master Race shit. The glory days of the Third Reich was a mighty bad time in history and history has a nasty tendency to repeat itself. Particularly so when we're told Group A are a bunch of screw-up wannabees while Group B are bloodthirsty killers. It wasn't Obama's best moment when he dismissed ISIS as a "junior varsity" team and he probably wishes he hadn't said that, but at the time the intelligence said the president was right. ISIS is now the New England Patriots of terrorism. This country's homegrown White supremacists/nationalists may be the Cleveland Browns. Bungling. Inept. Hopeless. Or they could be the Atlanta Falcons. This close to stepping up to being a serious contender. I think you're both right here - U.S. deaths from right-wing vs. Islamist extremists is damned near neck and neck - 47% to 53%, according to Politico. I have zero sympathy for anyone spouting white supremacy, and I definitely understand the urge to knock them the hell out. The thing that bugs me about the original story is that people hunted this guy down in order to punch him. That shifts from heat-of-the-moment self defense to premeditated assault. But I've been accused this week of being a Nazi sympathizer and a hater of LGBT/PoC because I don't believe in mob justice, so what do I know? Moving from "Nazi" to "white extremist" changes the conversation, because though certainty this current crop of self-styled Nazis are white extremists (or right-wing extremists), not all of the white extremists are Nazis. Regardless, the threat posed by the jihadist crowd goes well past US borders and has impacted American lives beyond the same, from Benghazi to Paris to Bali. And again, to be clear, the Third Reich--the German Nazis of the thirties and forties--killed millions of innocent people in horrible ways, based on a heinous ideology. And they wanted to rule the world, thus being the cause of millions of more deaths in war. It's tough for any group to be as bad as that. For all of the destruction and deaths caused by the jihadists, they're not in the same league yet, though it's not for a lack of trying. Because let's be clear about them, too: they's just as soon put everyone to the sword who isn't willing to follow their version of Islam to the letter (a particularly distressing issue for over half of the world's population: women). And jihadist attacks in the US and Europe are being spawned by the larger group, directly or indirectly. Sure, the threat posed by the Jihadist crowd goes beyond America's borders, but the threat is most immediate in Europe and the Middle East as the U.S. hasn't been hit by a repeat of 9/11 in 15 years. Nobody needs a history lesson of how bad the Third Reich was. It made the books and there's been plenty of movies about it. What you fail to take in account is while Nazism at its peak is long dead and gone, Nazism is not. The philosophy persists and like a disease that has gone dormant, it could revive in a equally virulent form and it's dangerously naive to believe it couldn't happen here.
You can ignore these extremists if you choose to, robeiae. You have that luxury. I do not.
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Post by robeiae on Sept 22, 2017 12:13:04 GMT -5
I'm not ignoring them, nor am I suggesting anyone else should ignore them. I'm just not willing to accept the idea that current Nazis in America represent such a huge threat that they overshadow the ongoing threat of the jihadists.
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Post by Amadan on Sept 22, 2017 12:40:54 GMT -5
Sure, the threat posed by the Jihadist crowd goes beyond America's borders, but the threat is most immediate in Europe and the Middle East as the U.S. hasn't been hit by a repeat of 9/11 in 15 years. Jihadist terrorists have continued to kill people since 9/11. The list of white supremacist and anti-semitic killings is much shorter. No one is saying either group is not a threat. Arguing about which group is objectively "worse" is not really productive. We can reasonably disagree about which group is more dangerous to whom. The source of this tangent was my pushing back on the idea that Nazis are the purest incarnation of evil in history and therefore should be exempt from normal laws and civil rights. We're all in agreement that Nazis "deserve" to be punched, in a karmic/moral sense. I am not sure that everyone is in agreement about whether it should be legal for someone to walk up and cold-cock a Nazi in the street for being a Nazi. (My opinion: no.)
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Post by nighttimer on Sept 22, 2017 13:49:46 GMT -5
I'm not ignoring them, nor am I suggesting anyone else should ignore them. I'm just not willing to accept the idea that current Nazis in America represent such a huge threat that they overshadow the ongoing threat of the jihadists. I see it differently. Agree to disagree. Sure, the threat posed by the Jihadist crowd goes beyond America's borders, but the threat is most immediate in Europe and the Middle East as the U.S. hasn't been hit by a repeat of 9/11 in 15 years. Jihadist terrorists have continued to kill people since 9/11. The list of white supremacist and anti-semitic killings is much shorter. No one is saying either group is not a threat. Arguing about which group is objectively "worse" is not really productive. We can reasonably disagree about which group is more dangerous to whom. The source of this tangent was my pushing back on the idea that Nazis are the purest incarnation of evil in history and therefore should be exempt from normal laws and civil rights. We're all in agreement that Nazis "deserve" to be punched, in a karmic/moral sense. I am not sure that everyone is in agreement about whether it should be legal for someone to walk up and cold-cock a Nazi in the street for being a Nazi. (My opinion: no.) There's way too much emphasis placed on the cold-cocking of the Nazi and not nearly enough of what sort of asshole gets up in the morning and thinks it's a good idea to step outside rocking a swastika? "Okay. I'm up and ready to catch the bus. Washed my face. Brushed my teeth. Turned my underwear inside out to get another day's use out of it. Mussed up my hair. Flushed the toilet. Fed my pet rat, Himmler. Tied my shoes. Am I forgetting anything?
Oh, snap! Forgot the swastika. That will never do!"Not only did our little stormtrooper wannabee get knocked out and left on the sidewalk, passerby's came up to him to see if they could help, took one look at that swastika, and kept it moving. Naaah. He's still breathing. Nothing to see here. Pretty much seriously fuck that guy. You are correct that it should not be legal to walk up and cold-cock a Nazi. But what's "legal" isn't always the same thing as what's "right." In a Karmic/Moral sense, karma can be a nasty bitch and when she comes back on your ass, morality goes right out the door.
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Post by Amadan on Sept 22, 2017 14:26:56 GMT -5
There's way too much emphasis placed on the cold-cocking of the Nazi and not nearly enough of what sort of asshole gets up in the morning and thinks it's a good idea to step outside rocking a swastika? That's because the latter is a non-controversial point, at least around here. So there isn't much else to say about it. Yes, Nazis bad. Whereas the question of whether it's okay to cold-cock Nazis is controversial, and the subject of this thread.
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Post by nighttimer on Sept 22, 2017 17:01:32 GMT -5
There's way too much emphasis placed on the cold-cocking of the Nazi and not nearly enough of what sort of asshole gets up in the morning and thinks it's a good idea to step outside rocking a swastika? That's because the latter is a non-controversial point, at least around here. So there isn't much else to say about it. Yes, Nazis bad. Whereas the question of whether it's okay to cold-cock Nazis is controversial, and the subject of this thread. Not controversial to me. If you don't like the effect, don't produce the cause. Ignore that and be a Nazi, you get punched. Sucks to be you. Otherwise, it's not right, but it's okay.
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Post by Vince524 on Sept 26, 2017 11:08:12 GMT -5
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Post by Optimus on Sept 26, 2017 14:20:37 GMT -5
Posting this because it's relevant and I generally like the videos this guy makes (though I don't find some of his arguments in this vid very strong). It's interesting to note that he makes the argument that punching random, lone Nazis might encourage them to gather in larger groups and hold larger demonstrations which would then lead to greater instances of violence.
The vid is from late May, months before Charlottesville. The man just might be a psychic (I say that with tongue-firmly-planted-in-cheek).
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