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Post by Deleted on Nov 13, 2017 18:48:21 GMT -5
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Post by robeiae on Nov 14, 2017 8:11:32 GMT -5
Remember when Assange and Wikileaks were heroes to the left and villains to the right? Funny how everyone can do an about face in nothing flat.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 14, 2017 9:09:44 GMT -5
To be fair, more people know more about Wikileaks and Assange now than they did.
I admit I often have an initial knee-jerk positive reaction to some whistle-blowing and leaking, but it depends entirely on the motivations of the person doing the revealing and the potential damage it could do to our country versus the damage it might do to some corrupt individual or organization. Exposure of corruption isn't a bad thing, in my book, even if it bends a rule or two -- but not if it does greater damage to e.g., our national security than it does to the corruption. And if the information released is distorted, or designed to deliberately expose one side's embarrassments but not the other's much greater corruption in order to, say, to influence an election -- yeah, that's not some patriot trying to keep things honest.
Both Wikileaks and Assange look far more nefarious to me (and I'm sure to others) than they did when I very first heard about them way back when.
Also, in my book it's one thing for Wikileaks to do something on its own or in coordination with a hostile power. It's quite another for a U.S. political campaign to cooperate with it (tacitly or otherwise). The former might help the campaign, but the campaign itself is not complicit. In the latter, the campaign is certainly complicit.
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Post by poetinahat on Nov 14, 2017 22:03:06 GMT -5
Assange has always seemed an unprincipled, reckless, arrogant creep, regardless of whether he was on the Good side. He's not done anything yet to disabuse me of that notion.
I suppose it was inevitable that he aligned with the Trump camp.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 14, 2017 22:10:27 GMT -5
That about sums him up, I think.
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Post by Don on Nov 15, 2017 5:26:53 GMT -5
Assange has always seemed an unprincipled, reckless, arrogant creep, regardless of whether he was on the Good side. He's not done anything yet to disabuse me of that notion. I suppose it was inevitable that he aligned with the Trump camp. The Trump camp has no monopoly on unprincipled, reckless, arrogant creeps. Imagining it does, or that other camps are more principled, less reckless and less arrogant, is how unprincipled, reckless, arrogant creeps end up running your life, and mine. Of course, it's not always easy to acknowledge lack of principles, recklessness, or arrogance in those we expect to save us from even more unprincipled, reckless, arrogant creeps.
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Post by poetinahat on Nov 15, 2017 5:32:39 GMT -5
Agree completely - and it’s certainly non-partisan. Trump stands out by having made it aspirational.
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Post by Don on Nov 15, 2017 6:05:31 GMT -5
Agree completely - and it’s certainly non-partisan. Trump stands out by having made it aspirational. Probably not a surprise that I find that naked honesty one of the pluses of the Trump regime, and one of the finest condemnations of the whole political process. When people finally quit believing that their "priests" are somehow immune to the abuse of power, the political system will suffer the fate of the Catholic church. The naked abuse of the current regime should contribute to that disbelief, at least among those who are already starting to doubt.
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Post by poetinahat on Nov 15, 2017 7:33:49 GMT -5
Hah. I told my wife over dinner tonight that what made Trump stand out was his lack of artifice about his venality and corruption. I can’t call it a plus, and I can’t put him down as being honest. But while he’s either a liar or unconscious of truth, he is, sometimes and in some way, guileless - if only because he’s not crafty or restrained enough to manage it. Interesting that you mention the Catholic Church - here’s an article from earlier this year that rolls out some horrific findings about the Catholic Church in Australia. It’s a very short read, and the figures are truly appalling. Any other organisation with these figures would be shut down yesterday, and Federal police would be carting them off to prison. www.bbc.com/news/world-australia-38877158Now then. I am not a Catholic, but I am a Christian - though disenchanted with the organisations, not the faith. While it’s not my intention to bash any church, I think any worthy organisation (or individual) must face its shortcomings, sins, and crimes squarely and fearlessly. And the history here is, well, horrifying.
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Post by Amadan on Nov 15, 2017 12:46:57 GMT -5
Probably not a surprise that I find that naked honesty one of the pluses of the Trump regime, and one of the finest condemnations of the whole political process. When people finally quit believing that their "priests" are somehow immune to the abuse of power, the political system will suffer the fate of the Catholic church. The naked abuse of the current regime should contribute to that disbelief, at least among those who are already starting to doubt. Who do you imagine actually believes that politicians in general - their own candidates or others - are somehow devoid of human failings? This idea that most people think politicians are saints and when the scales fall from their eyes, the political system will crumble is one of the most fantastical ideas I've ever seen you advance. If anything, it is excessive cynicism - the acceptance of the ideas that we should expect politicians to be lying, cheating scumbags - that is corrosive to the political process.
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Post by poetinahat on Nov 15, 2017 18:47:06 GMT -5
one of the pluses of the Trump regime "One of"? What do you think are the others, if I may ask? Could we make a Top Ten List? If nothing else, it might help the general mood. One thing I thought sounded reasonable: The plan for term limits for Congress. It was the first item on Trump's to-do list for his first hundred days. I don't remember hearing any more about it since then. And, in retrospect, I wonder if it could've been a ploy to sunset a number of Democrats and open seats for more Republicans to ride his coattails into office. (edited to add link)
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Post by Deleted on Nov 15, 2017 19:02:07 GMT -5
The infrastructure thing would have been nice. Remember infrastructure week? Those were the days.
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Post by poetinahat on Nov 15, 2017 19:06:35 GMT -5
From that list:
laugh... cry
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Post by mikey on Nov 15, 2017 19:45:29 GMT -5
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Post by poetinahat on Nov 15, 2017 20:01:09 GMT -5
There's no mention of "issis" in that article. Is there some other citation that would show such a connection?
Also from the article:
Sure, ceasefires sound better than supplying arms. But again, I don't see "issis" in this article. And this is the US and Russia talking about ceasefires. Russia - supposedly our good buddies now, right? And we're supporting opposite sides in the Middle East?
I'm definitely understanding why he trusts Putin before his own intelligence agencies.
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