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Post by poetinahat on Nov 28, 2017 19:18:09 GMT -5
Your mistake is that you didn't use the "ebil guvmint" to break up the ISPs in the first place, and prevented their creating regional monopolies. One reason why telephones are much cheaper today is that the "ebil guvmint" broke the back of AT&T and split it up into multiple parts so that each part had to compete with each other. You guys need a Margarethe Vestager holding a big, expensive whip. Breaking up AT&T had overall net benefits, but it wasn't across the board. And, according to this "five years later" analysis, it did not create competition; it swapped a national monopoly for regional monopolies for local service, while leaving long-distance in the hands of AT&T: So individual customers didn't have more choice for local services, or unilaterally lower costs - in fact, it had mixed effects, at least in the near term (bolding mine) So the Baby Bells charged heaps more for local service, and LD was much less. How much of that is down to competition, and how much is improving technology, or functional efficiency (of being able to concentrate only on LD, without having to deal with local telephony)? As the article states earlier, the AT&T monopoly could subsidize local service by charging more for LD. By splitting them up, LD could be cheaper, but the Baby Bells had no ability to subsidize. So the breakup worked in your favor if you used long-distance services. But it stung for local users. The benefit in changing from being overcharged for handset rentals to being able to buy cheap handsets: I'm not sure that's down to the breakup, but more a result of cheaper handsets reaching the market (note the "most" in the following quote): So, no, the AT&T breakup is not a clear case for competition - primarily because it didn't create much - if any.
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Post by Don on Nov 29, 2017 5:55:29 GMT -5
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Post by poetinahat on Nov 29, 2017 18:41:13 GMT -5
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Post by robeiae on Nov 29, 2017 21:32:22 GMT -5
From your link:
Everyone spins, but imo Gore was obviously trying to take a boatload of credit for the existence of the internet, credit that he did not and does not deserve. Gore made a stupid remark and he's caught a lot a heat for it. It's weird thing to get peeved about, imo.
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Post by Amadan on Nov 30, 2017 9:53:24 GMT -5
From your link: Everyone spins, but imo Gore was obviously trying to take a boatload of credit for the existence of the internet, credit that he did not and does not deserve. Gore made a stupid remark and he's caught a lot a heat for it. It's weird thing to get peeved about, imo. Did you actually read the entire article? Yes, Gore used the words "creating the Internet." And Republicans have been forever repeating that as if Gore claimed to have literally written the software and installed the servers, or come up with the original idea for the Internet, etc. Which would obviously be a ridiculous thing for him to claim, but it's very clear in the context of his speech that he was not claiming that - rather, he was claiming that he took the initiative in creating the legislation that was largely responsible for creating the modern Internet. The people who actually did write the software, install the servers, etc., acknowledge that Gore really was a key player in launching the Internet. If you want to be super-pedantic you can pick at his precise wording and accuse him of maybe exaggerating his role a tiny bit, but his statement was basically accurate. His remark was not stupid, it was, at worst, a little bit of puffery of the sort every politician makes, as well as everyone who's ever written a resume, and what he caught "heat" for was SNL jokes that Republicans think are reality.
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Post by robeiae on Nov 30, 2017 10:14:30 GMT -5
From your link: Everyone spins, but imo Gore was obviously trying to take a boatload of credit for the existence of the internet, credit that he did not and does not deserve. Gore made a stupid remark and he's caught a lot a heat for it. It's weird thing to get peeved about, imo. Did you actually read the entire article? Yes, Gore used the words "creating the Internet." And Republicans have been forever repeating that as if Gore claimed to have literally written the software and installed the servers, or come up with the original idea for the Internet, etc. Which would obviously be a ridiculous thing for him to claim, but it's very clear in the context of his speech that he was not claiming that - rather, he was claiming that he took the initiative in creating the legislation that was largely responsible for creating the modern Internet. The people who actually did write the software, install the servers, etc., acknowledge that Gore really was a key player in launching the Internet. If you want to be super-pedantic you can pick at his precise wording and accuse him of maybe exaggerating his role a tiny bit, but his statement was basically accurate. His remark was not stupid, it was, at worst, a little bit of puffery of the sort every politician makes, as well as everyone who's ever written a resume, and what he caught "heat" for was SNL jokes that Republicans think are reality. Yes I did read the entire article. Is this an argument you really want to have? Apparently so... AGAIN, Gore was quite obviously looking to make himself look good, to demonstrate how awesome he is/was for technology by bragging about his accomplishments. That's nothing new under the sun. But when he said ""During my service in the United States Congress, I took the initiative in creating the Internet," he opened himself up for the hyperbolic attacks, imo. Because I know--and I think you know, as well, despite everything you're saying--that the internet wasn't created by legislation in Congress and that it was operating as the internet prior to the legislation that Gore is actually referencing. If he wants to say he was ahead of the curve, great. If he wants to say he was at the forefront in creating legislation to expand the internet, great. But he said what he said, just like Obama said "you didn't build that," and Romney said "I like being able to fire people." In context, those statements don't fully reflect the criticism they engendered, but them's the breaks. Politicians slam each other for saying things like this all the time, as well. I'm sorry you're peeved, but imo, it's quite obviously true that: a) Gore overstated his importance, and b) Did so in a way that left him open to ridicule. Do you really disagree? Because this mockery is going to last as long as "I can see Russia from my house," so get used to it.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 30, 2017 10:36:01 GMT -5
I'm under the gun today, but I'm on Amadan's side of the argument. Al Gore is a smug piece of work.and I have no fondness for him, but this statement of his was taken out of context and badly dustorted.
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Post by Amadan on Nov 30, 2017 10:57:43 GMT -5
AGAIN, Gore was quite obviously looking to make himself look good, to demonstrate how awesome he is/was for technology by bragging about his accomplishments. That's nothing new under the sun. But when he said ""During my service in the United States Congress, I took the initiative in creating the Internet," he opened himself up for the hyperbolic attacks, imo. Because I know--and I think you know, as well, despite everything you're saying--that the internet wasn't created by legislation in Congress and that it was operating as the internet prior to the legislation that Gore is actually referencing. I do not believe you actually read the article if you're still claiming that Gore claimed he literally created the Internet. Yes, he opened himself up for hyperbolic attacks. Every politician who says anything opens himself up to hyperbolic attacks. My entire point here is that hyperbolic attacks are disingenuous and stupid, and while I expect to see them in the media and from ideological hacks, because that's what stupid and dishonest people do, I do not expect to see them here, being repeated by people who should know better. That is my point. In context, those statements did not mean anything like what their critics claim they said. When someone gives a speech in which one sentence, taken in isolation, sounds ridiculous, but framed within the context of the entire speech makes sense, and someone nonetheless keeps harping on the sentence in isolation, they are being disingenuous and stupid.
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Post by robeiae on Nov 30, 2017 12:07:44 GMT -5
I'm under the gun today, but I'm on Amadan's side of the argument. Al Gore is a smug piece of work.and I have no fondness for him, but this statement of his was taken out of context and badly dustorted. I do not believe you actually read the article if you're still claiming that Gore claimed he literally created the Internet. Again: ...it's quite obviously true that: a) Gore overstated his importance, and b) Did so in a way that left him open to ridicule. Do you really disagree? Because this mockery is going to last as long as "I can see Russia from my house," so get used to it. Why does Gore deserve so much special consideration on this matter? Why does he--in particular--need to be protected? If he wasn't such a self-important slime ball, this wouldn't be a thing (just like the Russia bit wouldn't be a thing if Palin wasn't such an ass).
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Post by Amadan on Nov 30, 2017 12:42:26 GMT -5
Again: ...it's quite obviously true that: a) Gore overstated his importance, and b) Did so in a way that left him open to ridicule. Do you really disagree? Because this mockery is going to last as long as "I can see Russia from my house," so get used to it. Why does Gore deserve so much special consideration on this matter? Why does he--in particular--need to be protected? If he wasn't such a self-important slime ball, this wouldn't be a thing (just like the Russia bit wouldn't be a thing if Palin wasn't such an ass). I disagree with (a), and (b) is meaningless. I don't think Gore deserves special consideration. I think the truth deserves special consideration. I will fight the same battle for anyone whose words are being deliberately misconstrued, even people I hate.
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Post by robeiae on Nov 30, 2017 14:03:20 GMT -5
Really? You think that when Gore says "during my service in the United States Congress, I took the initiative in creating the Internet," that's an accurate description of reality? If that's what you think, I guess there's nothing more to be said for it then. I think that's a pretty generous--for the benefit of Al Gore--view of history, myself, given my own experiences, and it's not like I'm some sort of cutting edge visionary in this regard.
Regardless, I'm going to continue to mock Gore for what he said, not because I think he intended to claim that he, himself personally created or invented the internet, but because I think the hyperbole of such an interpretation is an effective means of highlighting Gore's tendency to wallow in his own self-importance.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 30, 2017 14:59:11 GMT -5
Really? You don't think you're taking that quote entirely out of context? Really?
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Post by Amadan on Nov 30, 2017 15:08:09 GMT -5
Really? You think that when Gore says "during my service in the United States Congress, I took the initiative in creating the Internet," that's an accurate description of reality? You are doing exactly what I have been protesting this entire thread - taking a single sentence in isolation and going "LOL GORE SAYS HE CREATED THE INTERNET LOLOLOLOL!!!!!" and ignoring the context. I don't think you're arguing in good faith, and you're a mod so
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Post by robeiae on Nov 30, 2017 16:24:27 GMT -5
Excuse me, but I am SPECIFICALLY allowing that Gore was not trying to claim that he "really and truly invented the internet." I know that. If you don't think I'm arguing in good faith, it's probably because you're not reading in good faith.
But what he was doing was setting himself up on pedestal as a key figure in the creation of the internet. And that's bullshit. The Snopes piece--which you seem to think has it all wrapped up--is weak. What it claims is so clear in context is not so clear at all (and the comparison to the interstate highway system is stupid). Here's the actual full context of the quote:
What is clear, imo, is that Gore is singling out the internet as a key issue for him. And it's an example of one "initiative" (he says initiative an awful lot) that he thinks he deserves a lot of credit for. Indeed, he is very clearly putting himself at the head of the line in that regard. And contra the Snopes piece, looking at the quote in context doesn't provide the addition of "legislative and economic sense" at all.
SO AGAIN, no Gore is not trying to claim that he invented the internet but yes Gore is trying to grab as much credit as he can, credit that he doesn't deserve, imo (you can of course feel differently). But at the same time, he did a poor job of expressing himself in this regard, because what he actually said--in context or out of context--is not so far removed from the hyperbolic misstatement of it (again, see Palin and Russia; I'm sure I'd get a kick out of seeing you and Cass going balls to the wall in defense of her).
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Post by Amadan on Nov 30, 2017 16:42:49 GMT -5
During my service in the United States Congress, I took the initiative in creating the Internet. Even looking at that sentence in isolation, there are multiple ways to parse it, grammatically. The (less charitable) one is the one that paraphrases as "I...created the Internet." The (more charitable and IMO more accurate one) is "I took the initiative in (the effort of - implying it was not a one-man job) creating the Internet." You are reading it in the most pedantic possible way. Depending on what you call "the Internet," it technically existed as far back as the 60s, but Gore really was involved in promoting it in the 70s, before anyone outside of DARPA was using the word "Internet." The degree to which he may have "taken the initiative" is debatable, and I already acknowledged he might be buffing his resume a bit, but only a bit. There is no question that he did take the initiative on a lot of legislation that was instrumental to developing the Internet in its modern form. That does not mean he, or the federal government, literally constructed the Internet out of the aether or that it would never have happened without him. But you are grossly exaggerating what he said and you're still doing it. As for Sarah Palin and Russia, that's easy - Snopes covers it too. Her actual quote was no sillier than Al Gore's (technically you can see Russia from parts of Alaska, but it is exaggerating a wee bit the significance of that proximity), while "I can see Alaska from my house" was an SNL parody.
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