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Post by poetinahat on Dec 5, 2017 20:48:39 GMT -5
... but delay moving the embassy from Tel AvivAll bolding is mine. So, on one hand: And on the other hand: I'm not sure how this is a move toward lasting peace; it doesn't sound like this definition of peace would include coexistence.
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Post by michaelw on Dec 5, 2017 21:28:28 GMT -5
I agree such a step might not move the peace process forward, but in principle I don't see why recognizing Jerusalem as the capital should be so problematic. (Unless, of course, one thinks Israel should not have control over any part of Jerusalem.) The US can certainly affirm Jerusalem as the capital without taking a hard position on where the specific boundaries should be.
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Post by poetinahat on Dec 5, 2017 21:44:16 GMT -5
I suspect it’s that it implies (to put it probably too mildly) ownership/sovereignty over a city that’s the centre of three major religions - by a country not on the best of terms with the others. Palestinians, for a start.
If the quotes above don’t signal an obstacle, I’m not sure what I can add.
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Post by michaelw on Dec 5, 2017 23:25:44 GMT -5
I suspect it’s that it implies (to put it probably too mildly) ownership/sovereignty over a city that’s the centre of three major religions - by a country not on the best of terms with the others. Palestinians, for a start. If the quotes above don’t signal an obstacle, I’m not sure what I can add. Sure, I understand that some are determined to see it that way. But I think if we're realistic here, we can acknowledge that there's no possible two-state solution where Israel doesn't retain at least part of Jerusalem. Surely any reasonable observer can recognize that reality, no? So again, I don't see why a general recognition of Jerusalem as the capital should be such a terrible thing. Israel has had control over West Jerusalem since the very beginning of Israel's existence as a state. The dispute over East Jerusalem doesn't make that any less valid, IMO.
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Post by poetinahat on Dec 5, 2017 23:45:13 GMT -5
If you mean all the other Middle Eastern heads of state as the generic "some", well, okay - if the only ones who count are the Israelis, the Americans, and Macron (see original post).
I'm not sure how "not recognizing Jerusalem as the capital" (which is the status quo) equals "excluding Israel from control of any part of Jerusalem" (which is not). Could you elaborate?
And I'm not sure how the dispute over East Jerusalem is involved here; I know I never mentioned it.
We seem to be arguing unrelated theses.
Oh, wait - I get it! This is a metaphor for the unresolvable differences of perspective that have long plagued diplomacy in the Middle East! Fun!
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Post by michaelw on Dec 6, 2017 2:05:57 GMT -5
If you mean all the other Middle Eastern heads of state as the generic "some", well, okay - if the only ones who count are the Israelis, the Americans, and Macron (see original post). Well, many of those political leaders don't recognize Israeli sovereignty over any part of Israel. Given that fact, I think their hands are pretty much tied with regard to what position they can take on the status of Jerusalem. It doesn't. I agree. My angle is only that unless one has a problem with Israel having control over any part of Jerusalem, there's no problem (in principle, at least) with recognizing Jerusalem as the capital. Why would there be? If at least part of the city is legitimately part of Israel, they can designate it as their capital. Just like any other country can choose where to put their capital. One can always decide later on about US policy with regard to specific borders. I'm distinguishing between East and West in response to this: Maybe you disagree, but to me the only plausibly legitimate sovereignty dispute is with regard to the land Israel took over in 1967 (which would exclude West Jerusalem but include the eastern portion). And IMO, recognizing Jerusalem as the Israeli capital doesn't need to mean endorsing Israeli sovereignty over the entirety of the city.
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Post by robeiae on Dec 6, 2017 8:08:28 GMT -5
I can't believe this has actually been an issue. Well, I can believe it, I just find it disheartening, in a what-the-hell-is-wrong-with-people sort of way.
Jerusalem has been the capital of Israel since 1948, no? Israel has been a member of the UN since 1949. How is this even a thing? If people actually freak out over this, that's their problem. And it demonstrates, I think, the reality here: such people aren't really looking for a peaceful solution, at all. They do enjoy pretending that such is the case, however.*
* The people I am talking about are the leaders in other Middle East countries, hard-core advocates for Palestine, and so forth.
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Post by michaelw on Dec 6, 2017 8:28:10 GMT -5
I can't believe this has actually been an issue. Well, I can believe it, I just find it disheartening, in a what-the-hell-is-wrong-with-people sort of way. Jerusalem has been the capital of Israel since 1948, no? Israel has been a member of the UN since 1949. How is this even a thing? If people actually freak out over this, that's their problem. And it demonstrates, I think, the reality here: such people aren't really looking for a peaceful solution, at all. They do enjoy pretending that such is the case, however.* Yes. Another reason why this whole argument is ridiculous: the designation of a city as a capital is pretty much meaningless in practical terms. What does it matter to the outside world if the capital of Israel is Jerusalem, Tel Aviv, Haifa, or any other Israeli city? If it were true that Jerusalem shouldn't belong to Israel, then *that* would be the real issue to get upset about, not whether it's the capital vs. just any other city. If Canada claimed New York City as part of Canada, can you imagine people saying, "Oh, that's fine, at least they didn't say it was the capital." Sheesh. And yet, we have a Palestinian diplomat actually claiming that such recognition would be an act of war by Trump: www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/jerusalem-donald-trump-israel-capital-palestinian-authority-manuel-hassassian-netanyahu-a8094336.htmlAnd not just a war with Palestinians, but with all Muslims, everywhere. This is beyond insane.
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Post by Amadan on Dec 6, 2017 21:44:10 GMT -5
I think recognizing Jerusalem as the capital of Israel is only a problem "in principal" in the same way that recognizing Taiwan as an independent country is a problem "in principal," since that's also basically the reality everyone has been dealing with for decades while pretending it's not really official.
The reason being that recognizing it officially is a highly symbolic gesture that will really, really piss some people off.
The difference is that China has nuclear weapons and an army, so we care about pissing them off (though leave it to Trump to prove me wrong). Whereas we don't care that much about pissing off the Muslim world, especially under Trump. Because let's face it, the Palestinians aren't threatening to do anything they wouldn't be doing anyway.
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Post by poetinahat on Dec 6, 2017 23:24:57 GMT -5
Thanks for the responses, all.
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Post by maxinquaye on Dec 7, 2017 7:02:53 GMT -5
It is, like with most things Donald Trump does, a rather contemptible thing to do. To curry favour with the religious zealots in Akron, OH, he risks Ekron, Israel being blown up. Or for that matter Bethlehem in the West Bank.
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Post by michaelw on Dec 7, 2017 7:54:26 GMT -5
Good. That's what the denizens of Ekron get for worshipping Beelzebub. (Clever wordplay, Max, I admit. )
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Post by robeiae on Dec 7, 2017 8:38:22 GMT -5
I disagree that it's contemptible. It's kinda obnoxious. But the reality--again--is that Jerusalem is Israel's capital, and there's no reason why it shouldn't be recognized as such. It should never have reached this point. And the religious zealots all over the world who are getting bent out of shape over this, who would blow shit up over this, they're the ones with the problem and it's time the world stopped treating them with kid gloves. If they actually want peace, they need to grow up first. IMO.
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Post by michaelw on Dec 7, 2017 8:46:17 GMT -5
I'm just disappointed Trump didn't wait until Hanukkah.
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Post by robeiae on Dec 7, 2017 9:06:20 GMT -5
Look: www.dw.com/en/hamas-calls-for-third-intifada-after-us-recognizes-jerusalem-as-israels-capital/a-41687874Such people aren't interested in peace. They never have been. They use the idea of a peaceful solution as a means to curry favor and fundraise, but they don't want peace, as their reactions to an almost nothing* action by a US President proves. I admit, this stuff really frosts my ass, because imo there is a very clear double standard applied to anything Israel does, as compared to every other country on the planet. Israel was established, Israel has successfully defended its existence and its borders, like so many other countries. Yet, its ability to enjoy the benefits of those successes--i.e. making its own decisions and charting its own course--is constantly questioned and undermined, unlike almost any other country. Why? There's a simple answer... * For those unaware, apart from Israel saying Jerusalem is its capital since 1948, the US-- by an act of Congress--officially recognized this reality in 1995 (which still amounted to much ado about nothing, imo), which also required the embassy to be moved there from Tel Aviv. That's never happened because every President since then--Trump included--has opted to suspend the Act because of security concerns.
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