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Post by Deleted on Dec 21, 2017 12:41:41 GMT -5
another tweet:
I think it says a great deal about the current state of U.S. diplomacy and our standing in the world that our closest allies do not care to support our position.
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Post by robeiae on Dec 21, 2017 12:47:18 GMT -5
Lol.
I don't see anyone suggesting that the state-run Miss Iraq org needs to be condemned by the UN for it's actions that I noted above (which is more or less refusing to recognize Israel's existence). And since I dredged up the Chess thread, how about the Iranian chess federation banning one player for daring to play a required tournament match, simply because his opponent was a Jew?
Nations disagree with the US all the time. But condemning Trump because he dared to accept a simple reality? You're actually good with that? Disagree with what he did, argue that it was foolish, but the approach by some elements of the UN reflects their deep-seated anti-Semitism.
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Post by celawson on Dec 21, 2017 12:48:37 GMT -5
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Post by Deleted on Dec 21, 2017 13:09:21 GMT -5
Here's a thought.
Possibly the U.S. might have recognized the "reality" of Israel's sovereignty over West Jerusalem in a way that at least would not have made the rest of the world itch to tell us to fuck the hell off.
But instead Nikki and Trump swaggered in and threatened to "take names."
This is the rest of the world saying "LOL. Go ahead and take names, assholes."
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Post by celawson on Dec 21, 2017 13:17:40 GMT -5
There are very few countries in that vote whose U.N. opinion I care about on anything, and even fewer that I care about on this issue.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 21, 2017 13:25:32 GMT -5
That's nice. So it is the United States (or half of it, or a third of it) against, essentially, the rest of the world, who are all looserz.
That is indeed the attitude of our current government, and it is abundantly clear. We are an arrogant decining empire in increasingly hostile isolation from the rest of the world. I'm sure that will work out well for us, as such attitudes usually have throughout history.
MAGA!
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Post by maxinquaye on Dec 21, 2017 13:48:25 GMT -5
Those pre-eminent world powers of Micronesia and Palau voted with Trump. And seven other nations of equal power and stature. But Trump is taking names, so I'm sure the 128 countries voting against him will regret it.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 21, 2017 13:56:39 GMT -5
Those pre-eminent world powers of Micronesia and Palau voted with Trump. And seven other nations of equal power and stature. But Trump is taking names, so I'm sure the 128 countries voting against him will regret it. Pfft. Looserz.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 21, 2017 14:20:44 GMT -5
Here's a take I can get on board with (Twitter thread): (indeed, his take on the UN generally in his tweets makes sense to me. In case you're thinking he's some fringe liberal, btw... thefederalist.com/author/tomnichols/ )
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Post by haggis on Dec 21, 2017 16:34:17 GMT -5
Two things:
A. I'm an occasional writer and sometimes I send manuscripts to writer friends for critique. If 125 of them tell me my writing sucks, and if 32 of them are too embarrassed to take a position, and if 9 of them like it, it sucks. Same with our foreign policy.
II. Tel Aviv is an hour from Jerusalem. To make an unsupported stand over a one hour drive is insane. WTF is so important about 67 killometers that makes it worth pissing off almost all the rest of the world?
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Post by celawson on Dec 21, 2017 17:13:57 GMT -5
Two things: A. I'm an occasional writer and sometimes I send manuscripts to writer friends for critique. If 125 of them tell me my writing sucks, and if 32 of them are too embarrassed to take a position, and if 9 of them like it, it sucks. Same with our foreign policy. II. Tel Aviv is an hour from Jerusalem. To make an unsupported stand over a one hour drive is insane. WTF is so important about 67 killometers that makes it worth pissing off almost all the rest of the world? What if you write romance? And 125 of your writer friends loathe romance, as a rule? And 32 of them are too embarrassed to admit they like it?
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Post by robeiae on Dec 21, 2017 17:19:49 GMT -5
Better yet, what if those 125 "friends" tell you your writing sucks simply because you happen to be Jewish?
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Post by robeiae on Dec 21, 2017 17:32:01 GMT -5
II. Tel Aviv is an hour from Jerusalem. To make an unsupported stand over a one hour drive is insane. WTF is so important about 67 killometers that makes it worth pissing off almost all the rest of the world? Absolutely nothing, imo. But what is it about the rest of the world that they get pissed off over those 67 kilometers? Or at least pat the heads of those who do get pissed off and allow that they're fully justified in getting pissed off. To put it another way, why is always Israel (and by proxy the US, though not always) the one who has to eat shit? I'll point again to the Miss Iraq/Miss Israel kerfuffle. Did you know that the Israeli PM's office congratulated both women on the pic, on their small attempt to promote peace? Miss Iraq's family was forced to flee because of that simple pick. Miss Iraq was subjected to countless death threats, along with the loss of her title. For that pic. For over 60 years, that point of view--one grounded in anti-Semitism and one that can never lead to a peaceful solution, since it's goal is the destruction of Israel--has been accepted as a perfectly valid and reasonable point of view by people who imagine that they are liberal-minded proponents of freedom and equality. Why? To help find a peaceful solution to Israel/Palestine? How's that workin' out?
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Post by robeiae on Dec 21, 2017 17:38:00 GMT -5
Those pre-eminent world powers of Micronesia and Palau voted with Trump. And seven other nations of equal power and stature. But Trump is taking names, so I'm sure the 128 countries voting against him will regret it. Funny, but still indicative of the infantalizing I've been talking about. Because your point of view is that there's no need to kiss Trumop's ass, right? Yet, you also seem to think Muslim states need to have their asses kissed and their hands held, then gently burped and put to bed, because this will magically cure them of their anti-Semitic world views.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 21, 2017 17:39:49 GMT -5
How is this working out?
IMO, not well. IMO, we gained nothing and indeed it was actually counter-productive in just about every way. I agree with Tom Nichols that we might have accomplished more (for Israel and improved relations generally) by trying to talk to our allies and use our influence rather than threatening to "take names."
As he put it, we've spent a lot of capital, and for what?
What have we gained? What has Israel gained?
You and c.e. might think this is a non-controversial thing for Israel to claim and us to draw a line in the sand over. But in fact, it IS controversial because most of the world, including a lot of us here, do not think Israel has sovereignty over all that it is claiming sovereignty to.
Michael's and my earlier discussion (supporting Israel's claim to West Jerusalem as its capital, while supporting (or at least leaving more open) Palestine's claim to East Jerusalem as its capital (by, e.g., explicitly limiting our support to West Jerusalem, with recognition of the dispute over East Jerusalem) -- that you might have sold me on, if done in a diplomatic, intelligent way. But not the way this was done. It was just a stupid cowboy move that IMO accomplished nothing and blew capital we might need (including on other Israel -related issues) that matter more than this one.
And the fucking "taking names" thing? How was that anything other than stupid and obnoxious?
By the way, we've been kissing Saudi Arabia's ass for an awfully long time. And we're kissing Russia's now. There's a lot of artful dodging we do for diplomatic reasons. But it's only when it comes to Israel that it's worth becoming a gun-waving cowboy?
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