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Post by Christine on Dec 14, 2017 22:59:22 GMT -5
My point (and Jefferson's, I think) is that religion is not to blame, only the imposition of such beliefs on others. Surely you can agree with this, on record as you are with being against all manner of non-religiously motivated laws. Agreed. When they're back in their corner on their stools, I'll take off the gloves. Meanwhile, I'm in the ring. Me too! I just think it's better to fight against the imposition of religious beliefs on others, as opposed to fighting against the religious beliefs. Not that I don't think the latter would be invalid; I just believe the former has a better chance for success. Then again, I might be kidding myself.
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Post by Don on Dec 15, 2017 5:36:48 GMT -5
Agreed. When they're back in their corner on their stools, I'll take off the gloves. Meanwhile, I'm in the ring. Me too! I just think it's better to fight against the imposition of religious beliefs on others, as opposed to fighting against the religious beliefs. Not that I don't think the latter would be invalid; I just believe the former has a better chance for success. Then again, I might be kidding myself. I get your point, but I think you know my position on root causes. You can treat symptoms all day long, but until you tackle the underlying disease, you're probably not going to get very far. Don't get me wrong; I'm not after the 1A. But neither am I polite with people who start spewing illogical nonsense and insist it must apply to my life, as well, by edict and by force if necessary. I've started asking pointed questions and pointing out the huge holes in their logic instead of nodding my head politely while keeping those questions to myself and rolling my eyes in my mind. Before the Trump/Pence/Moore era, politeness generally won out. No longer. Some people won't talk to me anymore.
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Post by Optimus on Dec 15, 2017 12:10:28 GMT -5
Me too! I just think it's better to fight against the imposition of religious beliefs on others, as opposed to fighting against the religious beliefs. Not that I don't think the latter would be invalid; I just believe the former has a better chance for success. Then again, I might be kidding myself. I get your point, but I think you know my position on root causes. You can treat symptoms all day long, but until you tackle the underlying disease, you're probably not going to get very far. Don't get me wrong; I'm not after the 1A. But neither am I polite with people who start spewing illogical nonsense and insist it must apply to my life, as well, by edict and by force if necessary. I've started asking pointed questions and pointing out the huge holes in their logic instead of nodding my head politely while keeping those questions to myself and rolling my eyes in my mind. Before the Trump/Pence/Moore era, politeness generally won out. No longer. Some people won't talk to me anymore. Don, if you ever get bored, you might enjoy this guy's YouTube channel (Anthony Magnabosco). He practices "Street Epistemology" where he engages people in conversations about their beliefs, and uses sort of a Socratic approach to get them to critically analyze the foundation of their reliance on faith. His recent stuff hasn't been quite as engaging for me (probably because I've watched so many of his vids) but his older stuff (from 2015 and 2016) is good. There are some success stories, too. He recently featured a guy named Daniel on there who deconverted, in part, thanks to his conversation with Anthony. First talk with Daniel: www.youtube.com/watch?v=OpwxM2wNChE&list=PLh10RgQgGuM-2Ar_0-HDbamaZPJgRBCehFollow up with Daniel after his deconversion: www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Fe1vep7NDU&index=3&list=PLh10RgQgGuM-2Ar_0-HDbamaZPJgRBCeh
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Post by Deleted on Dec 15, 2017 13:42:30 GMT -5
You know, say what you will about Optimus, you've got to admit he gives good linkage.
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Post by Christine on Dec 15, 2017 18:43:27 GMT -5
I'm of the same mind regarding a lot of what Daniel said in the second video (and dayum, he sure did grow a vocabulary since the first video).
But at the same time, he is very young, and I get the sense he is looking for a place to belong. He wants to be a part of a group -- now, the atheist group -- and in some ways, I think he's just regurgitating what he's heard and read.
Imo there's a disturbingly cult-ish aspect in all of these sorts of endeavors, be they religious or atheist. Magnabosco clearly wants to convert (de-convert) people, notwithstanding his conversational approach. It all comes across as no different to me, having grown up in the church, than many forms of religious proselytizing--e.g., going door-to-door, spreading the Good News.
It's like, personally, I generally agree with the atheist view, but I find his methods here icky.
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Post by Christine on Dec 15, 2017 19:00:38 GMT -5
Me too! I just think it's better to fight against the imposition of religious beliefs on others, as opposed to fighting against the religious beliefs. Not that I don't think the latter would be invalid; I just believe the former has a better chance for success. Then again, I might be kidding myself. I get your point, but I think you know my position on root causes. You can treat symptoms all day long, but until you tackle the underlying disease, you're probably not going to get very far. Don't get me wrong; I'm not after the 1A. But neither am I polite with people who start spewing illogical nonsense and insist it must apply to my life, as well, by edict and by force if necessary. I've started asking pointed questions and pointing out the huge holes in their logic instead of nodding my head politely while keeping those questions to myself and rolling my eyes in my mind. Before the Trump/Pence/Moore era, politeness generally won out. No longer. Some people won't talk to me anymore. They still talk to me, but they know very well it's a bad idea to even hint at any religious belief that boils down to bigotry, unless they want to spar (and lose). Other than that, I don't mind if people talk about their religion. I have no issue with smiling and making noncommittal noises. If I want them to live and let live, I figure I should do the same.
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Post by Don on Dec 15, 2017 19:58:18 GMT -5
I get your point, but I think you know my position on root causes. You can treat symptoms all day long, but until you tackle the underlying disease, you're probably not going to get very far. Don't get me wrong; I'm not after the 1A. But neither am I polite with people who start spewing illogical nonsense and insist it must apply to my life, as well, by edict and by force if necessary. I've started asking pointed questions and pointing out the huge holes in their logic instead of nodding my head politely while keeping those questions to myself and rolling my eyes in my mind. Before the Trump/Pence/Moore era, politeness generally won out. No longer. Some people won't talk to me anymore. They still talk to me, but they know very well it's a bad idea to even hint at any religious belief that boils down to bigotry, unless they want to spar (and lose). Other than that, I don't mind if people talk about their religion. I have no issue with smiling and making noncommittal noises. If I want them to live and let live, I figure I should do the same. That's perfectly acceptable, if you seriously believe that those people extend you the same courtesy. Personally, I don't believe any of the people who voted for Roy Moore, who support the insanity of Jeff Sessions and Donald Trump, have the least little interest in a "live and let live" philosophy. I think they support the destruction of my lifestyle in pursuit of their own. And I'm no longer willing to sit quietly and politely nod when they express such desires. I'm reminded of a counter-point to the Thomas Jefferson quote you mentioned earlier.
Courtesy ended at the leg-breaking, pocket-picking stage. YMMV.
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Post by Christine on Dec 15, 2017 23:18:25 GMT -5
Courtesy ended at the leg-breaking, pocket-picking stage. YMMV. But the bolded has been your position for the entire ten years I've been reading your posts. Big government has been around for longer. People have been voting for them for as long as they've been around. Your courtesy seems to have run out along with your mileage for no particular reason. Maybe you're in the 'get off my lawn' stage of life? Congrats on the Illuminati status, btw. 'Bout time
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Post by Don on Dec 16, 2017 4:37:37 GMT -5
I see a tremendous "particular reason," and I'm surprised you don't.
Even with the gross economic stupidity of the Obama administration, it's horrid deportation record and continuation of the drug war, I, too, was lulled into thinking we were on an upward trajectory as a society. And I think we were to some extent, primarily because of that perception being wide-spread. Perception is reality sometimes. And SJW bullshit aside, progressives have a better reputation for tolerance of differing lifestyles that conservatives.
But with these knuckle-draggers in office, any false facade of civility is gone. I've got a few in my near-immediate family I'd be glad to hook you up with, if you think they're just another version of SJWs, angry at the world but too meek and out of touch with reality to be a serious problem.
Almost all these folks have real jobs and are highly functional outside the university setting. They also have guns, and know how to use 'em. And there's no chance they'll get diverted by passing around a paddle that gives them the opportunity to speak, or arguing over the appropriate gender pronouns.
There was never, ever going to be an army of Christian Soldiers, marching as to war, behind Barack Obama.
Behind the Disholy Trinity* of Sessions, Trump and Moore? I'm not so sure. I'm already hearing a lot of grumbling out of Alabama.
*Now that Moore's failure to launch has removed him from actual power, they fill the roles nicely; Sessions as Father, Trump as Son, Moore as the Holy Ghost.
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Post by Christine on Dec 16, 2017 19:21:26 GMT -5
I see a tremendous "particular reason," and I'm surprised you don't. Even with the gross economic stupidity of the Obama administration, it's horrid deportation record and continuation of the drug war, I, too, was lulled into thinking we were on an upward trajectory as a society. And I think we were to some extent, primarily because of that perception being wide-spread. Perception is reality sometimes. And SJW bullshit aside, progressives have a better reputation for tolerance of differing lifestyles that conservatives. But with these knuckle-draggers in office, any false facade of civility is gone. I've got a few in my near-immediate family I'd be glad to hook you up with, if you think they're just another version of SJWs, angry at the world but too meek and out of touch with reality to be a serious problem. Almost all these folks have real jobs and are highly functional outside the university setting. They also have guns, and know how to use 'em. And there's no chance they'll get diverted by passing around a paddle that gives them the opportunity to speak, or arguing over the appropriate gender pronouns. There was never, ever going to be an army of Christian Soldiers, marching as to war, behind Barack Obama. Behind the Disholy Trinity* of Sessions, Trump and Moore? I'm not so sure. I'm already hearing a lot of grumbling out of Alabama. *Now that Moore's failure to launch has removed him from actual power, they fill the roles nicely; Sessions as Father, Trump as Son, Moore as the Holy Ghost. Dude, you're missing my point. I recognized all of this way back in 2016. It's why I voted for Hillary. (As did many others, holding their noses, but sadly, it wasn't enough.) You don't have to explain how things have gotten worse; this has been the case in point since January 2017. What's surprising is that you apparently just now seem to be getting fed up with it, nevermind that you thought it was six of one, half a dozen of the other last November. I distinctly recall you laughing when Trump got elected--at everyone who was devastated. Forgive me if I don't feel a whole lot of solidarity with your newfound angst.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 16, 2017 19:47:05 GMT -5
MOD NOTE:
You aren't by chance dragging in discussions from other boards, are you?
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Post by Christine on Dec 16, 2017 20:20:24 GMT -5
MOD NOTE: You aren't by chance dragging in discussions from other boards, are you? Sorry, is that a note, or a question?
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Post by Deleted on Dec 16, 2017 20:30:43 GMT -5
It's a note.
If you're referring to something on this board, quote it. Otherwise, drop it.
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Post by Christine on Dec 16, 2017 21:19:19 GMT -5
Great. Here's how Don felt in November: I voted business as usual, with a side order of things may improve. Not because of anything the political class does better, but because we may finally have a re-engaged left when it comes to foreign adventurism, personal liberties, and the war on drugs. They've been sound asleep the last eight years. Add in the eight new nullifications of the drug war this election (4 medical states, 4 personal consumption states) and new tech moving faster than FedGov can regulate it, and the future actually has some shiny edges around the storm clouds. I did not say anything against forum rules, as far as I can tell. I did not reference another forum. Most of us have known each other for quite a while; to pretend we don't is silly, imo. But of course, I defer to the mods.
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Post by Don on Dec 17, 2017 4:30:24 GMT -5
Great. Here's how Don felt in November: I voted business as usual, with a side order of things may improve. Not because of anything the political class does better, but because we may finally have a re-engaged left when it comes to foreign adventurism, personal liberties, and the war on drugs. They've been sound asleep the last eight years. Add in the eight new nullifications of the drug war this election (4 medical states, 4 personal consumption states) and new tech moving faster than FedGov can regulate it, and the future actually has some shiny edges around the storm clouds. I did not say anything against forum rules, as far as I can tell. I did not reference another forum. Most of us have known each other for quite a while; to pretend we don't is silly, imo. But of course, I defer to the mods. Well, the left has failed to engage, spending all their political capital on hurt feelings instead of issues like foreign adventurism, personal liberties, and the war on drugs. They're still asleep, but whining in their fevered dreams that nobody likes 'em. Cannabis still has FedGov on the ropes, and there's no way Sessions is going to win that one. Exhume Nixon and there's an outside chance that would wake the left, although they'd apparently just whine that getting busted hurts their feelings. Apparently, what I missed was the contagion that is Political Correctness, and how it has spread to the right, with all the whining from religionists that they're the ones getting their feelings hurt this time. There are a lot more people on the right who are adopting the moral relativism of the left to justify their insanity. And these folks have guns and know how to use 'em. Tech, however, is still kicking ass. So what's your point?
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