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Post by celawson on Oct 18, 2018 9:37:21 GMT -5
I'm not a Floridian, but I've heard Scott has done a good job with the hurricane stuff, and that will also help his campaign. Do the Florida members here agree?
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Post by robeiae on Oct 18, 2018 9:43:59 GMT -5
Scott's done okay with hurricane stuff. He seems to have followed the Jeb Bush approach, to his credit.
Nelson's campaign has actually tried to push the idea that Scott is using the hurricane to avoid campaigning--Scott said he may not campaign at all, right up til election day--but that kinda fell apart when Gillum basically said the same thing as Scott.
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Post by Optimus on Oct 18, 2018 12:58:05 GMT -5
More proof (unfortunately) that the Dems have some of the worst political strategists working today.
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Post by robeiae on Oct 18, 2018 14:03:13 GMT -5
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Post by celawson on Oct 18, 2018 14:04:24 GMT -5
More proof (unfortunately) that the Dems have some of the worst political strategists working today. This is a fascinating statement. And I agree with it. But WHY does this seem to be the case? Especially when they have a detailed tutorial on how to run a losing campaign, from only 2 years ago.
I have a few thoughts:
1) they focus more on emotions rather than facts (this could definitely be seen in the Cruz/O'Rourke debate and the Kavanaugh nomination (even before the sexual assault allegations)). People aren't stupid.
2) As nighttimer brought up yesterday - they have emphasized attacking the opposition rather than promoting their own solid policies and why those policies would be better.
3) They've made so many PC rules, they're starting to step in their own poop, so to speak.
4) they haven't yet accepted that Trump has some sort of Teflon coating or magic shield which they cannot penetrate. I don't know how this works, either, but it has to be supernatural.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 18, 2018 14:20:40 GMT -5
It's not supernatural, c.e. There is nothing magic about it.
In 2016, half of the voting public that voted Democratic or Republican were thoroughly outraged by Trump, another one quarter loved Trump, and about one quarter were willing to whistle and look the other way. Another percentage didn't vote, or went third party Result: Hillary won the popular vote, Trump won the electoral vote.
I think it's safe to say that everyone who hated Trump in 2016 hate him even more now. It's a question of how many in the whistle and look away crowd crossed over into disliking him, and how many in the didn't vote/go third party camp have now chosen a side.
For at least half of us, the shit is sticking to Trump, and sticking bigly. Surely you have noticed that his approval ratings suck, including among independents. It's only Republicans with whom he seems to be teflon.
You know, when the teflon thing applied to e.g., Reagan and Bill Clinton, it didn't seem nearly so scary. That's because they adhered to some important norms and weren't batshit crazy vindictive greedy assholes who didn't give a shit about anything than their own interests. With Trump -- for the love of god, look at the things you are excusing.
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Post by mikey on Oct 18, 2018 15:13:41 GMT -5
More proof (unfortunately) that the Dems have some of the worst political strategists working today. This is a fascinating statement. And I agree with it. But WHY does this seem to be the case? Especially when they have a detailed tutorial on how to run a losing campaign, from only 2 years ago.
I have a few thoughts:
1) they focus more on emotions rather than facts (this could definitely be seen in the Cruz/O'Rourke debate and the Kavanaugh nomination (even before the sexual assault allegations)). People aren't stupid.
2) As nighttimer brought up yesterday - they have emphasized attacking the opposition rather than promoting their own solid policies and why those policies would be better.
3) They've made so many PC rules, they're starting to step in their own poop, so to speak.
4) they haven't yet accepted that Trump has some sort of Teflon coating or magic shield which they cannot penetrate. I don't know how this works, either, but it has to be supernatural.
CE, couldn't agree more about the recent tutorial the Dems have at their finger tips. It's amazing to me that they won't even look at it. As to your thoughts on1 through 4:
1) I think this is a non event. I believe every political organization runs its self on emotion, dems, repugs independent whatever, that's the way they do it.
2)Yeah I agree with this one.The Dems have wasted the last two years fanning their hair fires instead of attempting to put them out. What a waste!
3) heh, stinkie feet, that's funny.
4) I don't think Don has a teflon coating, rather the Dems have not yet come to terms with how Trump has changed the rules. Until they do come to terms with the changing landscape, they will continue to lose.
One last thing I'll say, bragging about a popular vote in a losing presidential campaign is a losing excuse.
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Post by Optimus on Oct 18, 2018 18:11:39 GMT -5
2) As nighttimer brought up yesterday - they have emphasized attacking the opposition rather than promoting their own solid policies and why those policies would be better. I think this point has a lot to do with it. Nationally, the DNC does not seem to have a coherent party platform. They rarely discuss what they are for, rather they put the majority of their focus on what they're against.I think - and this is just my intuition - that a lot of people's reaction to that approach is, "So, you hate Trump. OK, cool. We get it. Lots of people don't like Trump. But telling me you're 'not Trump' only tells me who you're not; it doesn't tell me who you are." Even though I detest much of the Republican platform, I gotta give them credit that when they decide on a platform, it is the gospel to them (figuratively and literally). They stand with pretty much one voice and they hammer that message home in every race, in every district, in every state across the country. What is the Dems' core message? What is their foundational platform right now? I honestly have no idea. I'm not sure they even have one and, if they actually do, they've done a shit job of getting all of their candidates on board and effectively communicating it to the public. I also think that, for the Democrat candidates who have flubbed their campaigns lately, they've done it by focusing on far(ther)-left "litmus test" type issues instead of focusing on core policy issues. This will always work out badly for them because no matter what side of the litmus issue they fall on, they will still turn off a large swath of voters. Better to stay away from this type of kryptonite altogether. Some examples: Warren is being savaged right now because she fell for Trump's trolling, and rather than hammering him on policy, she tried to prove her "victimized identity group" cred (a "litmus test" issue, in a way). She's now paying the price for that and I have my doubts that her "brand" will be able to recover for a Presidential run. robeiae also highlighted how Gillum made a fool of himself by regurgitating the same totally bullshit - and utterly stupid - talking point about unemployment rates being related to people working multiple jobs (trying to pass a far-left/DSA litmus test related to income inequality and the "great Satan" of capitalism). He's taking a hit in the Florida press for that, and frankly he deserves it. I like him, but that was a really stupid statement. I already pointed out how Phil Bredesen in TN made a significant number of people mad at him for saying he'd support Kavanaugh's nomination (failing the litmus test issue with people on the left). His poll numbers took a measurable hit right after that idiotic statement. Lastly, and most recently, Heidi Heitkamp from North Dakota is getting quite a bit of heat for an ill-advised ad about sexual assault that included the names of women who were supposedly the victims of sexual abuse (b/c MeToo is another litmus test issue for the left). Unfortunately for Heitkamp, not only were several of the women not actually victims of sexual assault, many of them didn't appreciate their names being broadcast to the public on such a list. Heitcamp basically just violated the consent of women while trying to virtue signal that she supports women who've had their consent violated. If Dems would do a lot less of this dumb shit, and a lot more of focusing on strong, core policy issues (after finally deciding on some, of course), they would be in a lot better position in the polls. Unfortunately, they can't help getting tripped up on peripheral issues, thus continually falling on their political faces like a bunch of Keystone Cops trying in a room full of banana peels.
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Post by Amadan on Oct 18, 2018 18:27:34 GMT -5
Yup. I could channel Don here and say that right now, the Democrats really don't seem to be offering a platform that's much different than the Republicans, except maybe they won't try to kill Obamacare or stuff the Supreme Court with pro-life justices. Other than that, their major selling point is "Not Trump."
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Post by Don on Oct 19, 2018 6:25:03 GMT -5
Yup. I could channel Don here and say that right now, the Democrats really don't seem to be offering a platform that's much different than the Republicans, except maybe they won't try to kill Obamacare or stuff the Supreme Court with pro-life justices. Other than that, their major selling point is "Not Trump." That's pretty much the short version of why I don't vote: Every four years, I predict that regardless of who's elected, in four years the government will consume more of the economy, we will be more regulated, less free to make our own decisions, the economy will be more handicapped, the dollar worth even less, healthcare and education will be more expensive, and our military will still be spread all over the world pretending to be the world's police, and one set or another of politically-connected jackasses will be much richer. That prediction has been consistently accurate since I was first eligible to vote, almost 50 years ago. Now, since I'm opposed to all those things, how will voting improve my life? As Lysander Spooner said, "A man is no less a slave because he is allowed to choose a new master once in a term of years." I'd gladly vote for a true pro-choice candidate. I haven't seen any of those in my lifetime, red or blue. All that effort and money to decide which set of corporate cronies will benefit for the next four years seems a massive waste of economic resources to me. OTOH, it's a great way to keep the two teams fighting with each other instead of pointing out that the refs keep rigging the game so the league is always the winner.
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Post by robeiae on Oct 19, 2018 8:11:22 GMT -5
I also think that, for the Democrat candidates who have flubbed their campaigns lately, they've done it by focusing on far(ther)-left "litmus test" type issues instead of focusing on core policy issues. This will always work out badly for them because no matter what side of the litmus issue they fall on, they will still turn off a large swath of voters. Better to stay away from this type of kryptonite altogether. I really like this analysis and terminology. To build on it: "Litmus test politics" is an excellent--imo--way to encapsulate what's going on with a good chunk of the left. It used to be that "single issue politics" was the driver, but now--thanks to the triumph of identity politics--it's no longer issue-driven, by and large. It is as you say, being able to past a litmus test in order to prove membership in or generate acceptance from one aggrieved group or another.
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Post by nighttimer on Oct 19, 2018 9:55:02 GMT -5
Yup. I could channel Don here and say that right now, the Democrats really don't seem to be offering a platform that's much different than the Republicans, except maybe they won't try to kill Obamacare or stuff the Supreme Court with pro-life justices. Other than that, their major selling point is "Not Trump." That's pretty much the short version of why I don't vote: Every four years, I predict that regardless of who's elected, in four years the government will consume more of the economy, we will be more regulated, less free to make our own decisions, the economy will be more handicapped, the dollar worth even less, healthcare and education will be more expensive, and our military will still be spread all over the world pretending to be the world's police, and one set or another of politically-connected jackasses will be much richer. That prediction has been consistently accurate since I was first eligible to vote, almost 50 years ago. Now, since I'm opposed to all those things, how will voting improve my life? As Lysander Spooner said, "A man is no less a slave because he is allowed to choose a new master once in a term of years." I'd gladly vote for a true pro-choice candidate. I haven't seen any of those in my lifetime, red or blue. All that effort and money to decide which set of corporate cronies will benefit for the next four years seems a massive waste of economic resources to me. OTOH, it's a great way to keep the two teams fighting with each other instead of pointing out that the refs keep rigging the game so the league is always the winner. I call bullshit. The 1% would have no power if the 99% voted. All people like Don do is ensure the elitists stay elite and continue buying politicians to implement their policies. All people like Don do is ensure corporations will flood campaigns with dollars to get the laws they want passed and the laws then don't want defeated and if it harms the environment, the public, the right not to be spied upon and deny women access to a safe, legal abortion, who gives a fuck as long as someone gets rich or gets richer? Not people like Don. A few days ago Don asked Cassandra if she would consider voting for Bill Weld if he were the Liberatarian presidential candidate. Why? Why bother if it makes no difference? Make up your mind, Don. If choosing between a Hillary Clinton or a Donald Trump is a waste of time, why does it mean something only when there's a Ron Paul or Gary Johnson running? Voting doesn't mean everything changes, but not voting means nothing changes. ...all types of conniving methods are still being used to prevent Negroes from becoming registered voters. The denial of this sacred right is a tragic betrayal of the highest mandates of our democratic traditions and its is democracy turned upside down. So long as I do not firmly and irrevocably possess the right to vote I do not possess myself. I cannot make up my mind — it is made up for me. I cannot live as a democratic citizen, observing the laws I have helped to enact — I can only submit to the edict of others. ~ Dr. KingFollowing people like Don only leads Black people me into a slavery by another name. Not voting is the ultimate White Privilege. Too many people quite literally shed blood and died so I could have the right people like Don blow off as unimportant. Well, it is important to me, so as long as I can vote I will vote. Because they don't want me to.
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Post by Amadan on Oct 19, 2018 10:32:24 GMT -5
I disagree with Don about not voting, but I agree with him that neither the Democrats nor the Republicans right now are really going to do anything meaningful to help the 99% curb the 1%.
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Post by nighttimer on Oct 19, 2018 14:43:17 GMT -5
I disagree with Don about not voting, but I agree with him that neither the Democrats nor the Republicans right now are really going to do anything meaningful to help the 99% curb the 1%. Who said anything about the Democrats or the Republicans? Who said anything about opting for one corporate owned and operated asset for another? Wasn't me. Exchanging a box of cobras for a box of rattlesnakes is not the change we need in Washington. I have something else in mind entirely.
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Post by Amadan on Oct 19, 2018 15:04:05 GMT -5
Who said anything about the Democrats or the Republicans? Who said anything about opting for one corporate owned and operated asset for another? Wasn't me. Exchanging a box of cobras for a box of rattlesnakes is not the change we need in Washington. I have something else in mind entirely. Well, people talk about an alternative to the Republicans and Democrats, but even the best attempts never get much traction. Maybe we're ripe for an actual paradigm-shift, but I don't think it will happen.
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