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Post by Deleted on Apr 7, 2018 22:33:53 GMT -5
Well, that's your view.
If I knew my 16 year old was doing drugs in his dad's empty apartment which his dad has forbidden him to be in when he is away, and he was likely to stay out all nigh -- AGAIN-- and I had no way to get the kid out myself, I'd consider calling the cops.
The kid isn't going to jail, Christine. He's not being arrested. He won't have a record. He's just being dragged home by the ear to his mom's house. He's in big trouble with his parents, not the police.
Dad gave him a second chance with the key (which he is only supposed to use when he's staying with his dad) because the kid seemed so sincerely sorry. Kid had me fooled, too, frankly. I thought he learned his lesson.
Mom's alternative was to sit up worrying all night while kid used dad's apartment as a party pad.
Fuck the kid. He needs a sharper lesson, clearly.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 7, 2018 22:40:54 GMT -5
Even the cops couldn't get in the building without someone buzzing them in. The difference is, someone will let a cop in (just, heh, not me). She's not a cop, and she doesn't have a key. We don't have a doorman. What was she going to do -- ring random doorbells at 10:30 saying she's someone's mom and would they let her in the building?
She couldn't just come here and get the kid herself unless kid let her in. And he was ignoring her calls. (I heard the details after the cops got the right apartment -- the conversation took place just outside my door, so I couldn't help it.)
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Post by Christine on Apr 7, 2018 22:53:34 GMT -5
So, kid is "doing drugs" (pot) -- a terrible thing -- which is a good reason to call the cops? Cops arrest people for doing drugs, do they not? And yet, kid is not going to be arrested. Okay, fine. So, kid is not experiencing any fear of being arrested... which would presumably be the "sharp lesson"? Except it's not. It's meanie mcmeanie mom making go him home.
Yeah, dad needs to take away the key (for your and your neighbors' sanity) and possibly (jmo) mom and dad need some counsel on how to parent even more than the kid needs to hear from some random cops on how to behave.
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Post by Christine on Apr 7, 2018 23:02:28 GMT -5
Even the cops couldn't get in the building without someone buzzing them in. The difference is, someone will let a cop in (just, heh, not me). She's not a cop, and she doesn't have a key. We don't have a doorman. What was she going to do -- ring random doorbells at 10:30 saying she's someone's mom and would they let her in the building? She couldn't just come here and get the kid herself unless kid let her in. And he was ignoring her calls. (I heard the details after the cops got the right apartment -- the conversation took place just outside my door, so I couldn't help it.) The question for me is: was this an emergency? Was this the sort of issue you call the cops for? My answer is fuck, no. I wouldn't call the cops just because my teenage son was being a little fuck. I wouldn't call the cops because he was "doing drugs." I'd call the cops if I was worried for his safety, for sure. Beyond that, no. I'm severely unimpressed by this mother. Sorry. ETA: I never voted in the original poll, mostly because I was ambivalent on the choices, but my answer is that I would probably "tattle" in a case wherein the behavior was bothering me to a point "up with which I could not put" (to quote my dad). I wouldn't feel any moral obligation to report it, nor would I feel obligated to mind my own business. I wouldn't feel obligated to anything other than the limits of my own discomfort, and the discomfort of others, as I perceived it. With that said, the kid's behavior, as reported, doesn't seem that bad (subsequent to the primary offense), but I wasn't there. It's quite possible that the sounds/smells would have annoyed me to the point that I would have cornered the dad at the first opportunity and insisted that he make his son vacate the premises, forever. But as a mother, I know for a fact I would not have called the cops in order to force my kid to come home, unless I felt he was in danger wherever he was. I would not exert force or power over a teenage child "just because" he should be where I wanted him to be. If I could not have accessed him, but knew he was safe, I would have waited until he did come home (not without being very pissed off, mind) and then dealt with the fact of him ignoring my calls, curfew, etc. As opposed to calling the police.
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Post by Don on Apr 8, 2018 6:13:23 GMT -5
Not everyone considers calling the police a safe thing to do. I can easily understand why @cassandraw and Christine have widely different viewpoints here. Since I own a dog I love and acknowledge that I break many laws with impunity, I'm personally in the "never call the cops" category. OTOH, I know there are some people who consider the police their personal babysitters.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 8, 2018 7:34:55 GMT -5
If she'd waited until the kid got home, kid would have lied to her. Again. She'd have no proof of where he was. This is what has been happening, other than the one time I tattled to dad. He'd say he was at a friend's house. The friend would lie and cover for him. This has happened repeatedly. My tattling back at Christmas enabled them to catch him in one such lie.
I overheard everything that happened in the hall (impossible to help it, due to acoustics). Yes, the sharp lesson is that the cops showed up with his mom, broke up his party, sent all the kids home, and escorted kid back home with his mom. I dunno, that would have made an impression on me at sixteen. More than having mom yell at me while impotent to prove what I was doing.
As for how "harmless" this is -- take aside the drugs and drinking at the party. Take aside that I'm not the only neighbor who has been repeatedly annoyed by this kid's parties. There's also the fact that if anything bad happens in that apartment, Dad could be in bigger trouble (let alone the possibility of damage and theft to his apartment and the building or a person from hordes of kids he may not know partying in his apartment. He could be evicted. There's also the fact that this kid's smug defiance and repeatedly getting away with lying grough his teeth isn't boding well for his future.
One thing I'm going to do when my neighbor gets back is tell him to give my contact info to the mom. I'm sure they'll confiscate the keys, but kid could have made a copy. If she wants to know if kid is here and needs someone to let her in the building, she can call me.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 8, 2018 8:34:44 GMT -5
The other thing I think might make an impression -- this probably was somewhat humiliating, since it happened in front of all his friends (who were all simply sent on their way, btw).
Taking aside what might have happened (that Dad could be liable for), and the fact that the kid was disobedient, lying, drinking underage, and doing drugs, since the kid was expressly forbidden from being there, it's trespass.
By the way? Under some circumstances, I would absolutely call the cops on a relative, even if they did end up arrested. In fact, relatives of mine have called the cops on each other, and in most cases, I've thought that was the best thing to do. I've called the cops on neighbors, although not this one.
ETA:
Another by the way -- the mom is from Puerto Rican (still has a heavy accent and is very brown-skinned). Dad is a wasp. So this isn't simply a "white people are comfortable with cops and people of color aren't" situation. Since mom came with the cops, I imagine she felt comfortable the cops weren't going to shoot the kids and I'm sure she discussed the situation with them before they arrived.
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Post by Amadan on Apr 9, 2018 10:01:56 GMT -5
This is going to be a rare situation where I side with Christine. I mean, I don't think Mom was a horrible person for calling the cops - it's great she had that resource available to deal with a bratty punk kid. That said...
Mom's brown skin notwithstanding, I am going to assume that you live in a relatively posh building and that this kid's family is pretty affluent. It's not that cops automatically treat white people better - it's that if they're called to bust up a rich kid's party in Dad's nice apartment building, they're going to be much nicer about it than if they'd been called to bust up a party of teenagers doing drugs in a less affluent neighborhood. And only a mom coming from that kind of background would think calling the cops is a reasonable and safe thing to do in this situation. She can use the cops as parental backup, basically - which is frankly a waste of their time, even if they didn't particularly mind. I think most parents, especially of lower socio-economic status, would consider calling the cops on your kid to be something you only do in a dire emergency.
Much as I hate the overuse of this term, it really does reek of "privilege."
I'm also having a hard time understanding why mom couldn't deal with him herself. Okay, she can't get in the building. Does she have dad's phone number? Can't she call him and raise hell about what their kid is up to? Can't she call building maintenance/the office and tell them they have a bunch of underaged trespassers doing drugs and they're going to have serious legal problems if they don't let her come collect her son? Or when son comes home, why does she need "proof" if she knows what he was doing?
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Post by Deleted on Apr 9, 2018 10:45:07 GMT -5
It's not a posh building at all -- not even close. I'm what you might call "prudent" (cheap) about these things (and New York housing is expensive anywhere you go). It's a middle class building in a middle class neighborhood immediately bordering on Harlem. There are projects a couple of blocks away and a homeless shelter down the street. I have neither laundry nor a dishwasher in my apartment, and have no doorman. I also have no view -- no one in the building does, as it is only 7 floors. There are also no balconies, terraces, fireplaces, etc. One plus side, I'm close to a park and an express subway stop, which are essential for me. The building has intermittent plagues of mice which the landlord lets us deal with ourselves. The apartment is cute and cosy, and large enough to accommodate all my books, but that's about all one can say for it.
It is never safe to assume things.
Perhaps when I buy, I'll shell out for a fancy neighborhood, but I cannot see shelling out big buck to rent and pouring any more money than I can help into a landlord's pocket.
Dad is in China. his job has him traveling frequently and extensively in Asia; hence the problem. The kid wasn't picking up the phone. It was 10:30 on a Saturday night and no one would have been in the building office, even assuming she had the number. . No one would be there until Monday morning. There was no one to call.
Any other wrong assumptions anyone would care to make?
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Post by Amadan on Apr 9, 2018 11:05:49 GMT -5
I'm not accusing you of being rich and privileged and snobby. I'm saying this apartment building is not the sort where people are more likely to fear cops than welcome them. I think it would be a lot different for those folks living in the projects down the street.
If Mom seriously had no other way to reach her kid than to call the cops, then there's a serious parental breakdown here. And I think she was taking a big risk. The cops apparently treated the little delinquents like little delinquents, but that's hardly a given, especially nowadays. If the cops had felt like being dicks, or one of the kids had mouthed off in just the wrong way, her son could be facing charges. I guess she figured she'd already worked it out with them beforehand? But how did she know they were just going to handwave away the trespassing and pot smoking?
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Post by Deleted on Apr 9, 2018 11:07:57 GMT -5
I'm not sure, in her shoes, whether I would have called the police or not. But I might have, given all the circumstances.
And given how very fucking aggravating this situation is for us neighbor types, I'm glad she did. I suspect this is the end of the parties.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 9, 2018 11:15:06 GMT -5
I'm not accusing you of being rich and privileged and snobby. I'm saying this apartment building is not the sort where people are more likely to fear cops than welcome them. I think it would be a lot different for those folks living in the projects down the street. If Mom seriously had no other way to reach her kid than to call the cops, then there's a serious parental breakdown here. And I think she was taking a big risk. The cops apparently treated the little delinquents like little delinquents, but that's hardly a given, especially nowadays. If the cops had felt like being dicks, or one of the kids had mouthed off in just the wrong way, her son could be facing charges. I guess she figured she'd already worked it out with them beforehand? But how did she know they were just going to handwave away the trespassing and pot smoking? She went with the police. No doubt she discussed her problems and suspicions with them before they went to the apartment -- I am betting she went directly to the precinct to discuss it in person. The police were super nice (as I said, I overheard everything). . I am guessing they told her exactly what they'd do. And of course there is a breakdown here. That should be clear from the story. The kid is out of control. The parents tried talking to him, making him apologize, grounding him, etc. Clearly the kid defied them anyway. This isn't a one-off, first-time situation. And I know from the dad that they're very concerned kid is getting in with a bad crowd that will pull him more deeply into trouble. ETA: As an observer of the family, one of the things that concerns me most about the kid was how good his apology to me was at Christmas, since he clearly didn't mean a damn word of it. I would have sworn this was a kid who'd learned a valuable lesson and respected his parents. Not the case, apparently. I think this was a combo of fear, desperation, and tough love. ETA: I don't blame them for worrying about the crowd he's in with -- his friends were not polite to me and did not comply when I repeatedly asked them to keep it down in the hallway back at Christmas. (That's what drove me into complaining.) Another thing to note -- the divorce was a bitter one. This is not a family that amiably has holidays together a la the robieae family. The parents do talk about kid and cooperate when dad is in town, but the bitter relationship is probably one reason mom doesn't have a key to her ex's apartment. (Also probably the case that they believed the kid when he said he wouldn't do it again -- hell, I believed the kid, and I don't love him.) I am guessing that changes now. You know, come to think of it, I don't even know for a fact that Dad DID let kid keep the key. I'm assuming it, since kid had the key, but it's perfectly possible kid had copies made of the keys, just in case Dad took them away or he lost a set. And if he didn't do that before, he could do it now. That's one reason I'm going to offer, when Dad gets back, to be a contact for the mom when he goes out of town. I can call her if kid comes here when dad is out of town, or she can call me if she's worried. It takes a village. Dad might well give her keys now, but if he doesn't, I can let her in the building (assuming I'm home). I suspect this is a situation with the kid that has been rapidly escalating, and they're scared.
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Post by markesq on Apr 9, 2018 11:35:43 GMT -5
I've done more than a hundred ride-alongs with cops as part of my job. I promise you, every cop who attended that wee event has been called out on stuff waaaay more insignificant. And cops actually (in my experience) like to help people, and would probably have seen this as an opportunity to help a kid straighten out. Sometimes it takes a man in a uniform and a threat of jail to get a hard-headed kid to see that his behavior is affecting other people and is more than should be tolerated. Not an ideal situation, for sure, but at the end of the day it was a situation created by the kid, and if those around him react strongly he should take stock of that.
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Post by Amadan on Apr 9, 2018 11:45:30 GMT -5
I guess it's just a measure of the times, and my cynicism, that even I, who all my RL friends will tell you is very straight-laced, pro-authority, law-and-order, sympathize with people who view the cops with mistrust and am now pleasantly surprised when they decide not to be dicks.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 9, 2018 11:46:27 GMT -5
Seriously --
Given the situation was at the point it was, with no option to go back in time and give Mom a set of keys to her ex's apartment, what do you think Mom should have done here?
She can't call Dad because he's in China, and if she did, he couldn't do anything. Even assuming she had the number for our building management, it wouldn't do her any good until Monday morning. If she sat home and just waited for the kid, the kid would no doubt be ready with another glib lie she'd be powerless to disprove and who knows what he's up to in the meantime. And he'd do it again. She can't force kid to pick up the phone or answer the door -- kid can just say later that his phone was off and that he wasn't at the apartment. She come to the building alone and ring random doorbells at 10:30 at night, but I can't imagine anyone would let her in. I sure as hell wouldn't. We're not supposed to let people in the building we don't know. People will let police in the building, though. And when the police knock directly on the apartment door and say "we know you're in there, it's the police," kid can't ignore it.
Okay, I'm going to admit peeking through the peephole as kid was escorted out. (Come on, my evening was already disrupted, and I was curious.) The cops first shooed all the other kids out. Then they had kid lock up the apartment and hand them the key -- which they handed to Mom. The kid looked chagrined as hell, but the cops were calm and not at all threatening. Mom was scolding the kid; the cops quietly escorted them to the elevator.
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