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Post by robeiae on Apr 17, 2018 7:42:24 GMT -5
A thread inspired by this story: Ryan Zinke refers to himself as a geologist. That's a job he's never held. This isn't about Zinke, about whether or not he's fit to be Interior Secretary. If someone wants to talk about that, start a different thread, please. This is about how we label ourselves, what the justifications are for such labels, and whether or not the labels should be accepted by others. Because this story called to mind past discussions I've been a part of that tackled the issue of labels like "writer," "author," "journalist," and so on. And I can see how it can be extended to professional labels like "doctor" and "lawyer," that require licensing from the state, along with labels that are both occupational and academic, like "scientist," "mathematician," "geologist," and "historian." Then there are a host of unfettered labels like "salesman," "entrepreneur," "intellectual," and so forth, some of which may reference real occupations and others which might reference skill sets. To use myself as an example, I like to call myself a (struggling) writer. Even though I've had some online articles published and self-published a book some years back, I refrain from calling myself an "author" because I think that label should be applied to people who get paid to write books (no self-published books count). Others may disagree, of course. And if someone called themselves an author because they self-published, I'd accept it. But, I am willing to call myself--and have called myself--an historian; that's what my degrees are in. I think I earned that right, paid for that right. Thoughts?
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Post by Deleted on Apr 17, 2018 8:17:03 GMT -5
A couple quick thoughts:
if it's something that actually requires a license/particular degree, you don't get to call yourself that. You are not a lawyer. I am not a doctor. If I had not passed the bar exam, it doesn't matter if I read a zillion law books or even went to law school -- I would not be a lawyer. The fun thing is, once you have that license, you can call yourself a lawyer even if you don't practice law.
The same is true for scientists, doctors, dentists, etc.
But things that don't require a license, I think it's more about whether you are actually performing the work. "Writer" is a prime example, IMO. You can be a writer if you are writing. You might not be a published writer or a journalist, but still you are a writer.
I don't think getting paid is necessarily the line; I've done a fair bit of unpaid legal work. Even if I never took another dime, I'd be a lawyer.
One thought -- how badly would you be misleading people if you hung up a shingle on your door advertising your self-applied label? If I hang out "poet" and you hang out "historian", no one is hurt; indeed, are either of us really less qualified than a lot of recognized poets and historians? I have a nice pile of poetry; I'm sure you have a lot of historical writing. But if you hang out "lawyer" or I hang out "doctor", someone potentially is misled and hurt, and we can get sued.
Some food for thought -- some writers and artists are not successful until after they die. Were they not writers and artists until they were dead? I seem to recall Van Gogh sold one painting, for a pittance, in his lifetime, for example.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 17, 2018 8:31:11 GMT -5
John Kennedy Toole published nothing in his lifetime; won a posthumous Pulitzer for Confederacy of Dunces. Emily Dickinson wrote hundreds of poems; published something like a dozen, and was largely unknown until the 20th century. Surely they didn't just become writers after they began to decompose, right? 
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Post by Amadan on Apr 17, 2018 13:06:57 GMT -5
Did they refer to themselves as writers during their lifetimes, though?
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Post by Deleted on Apr 17, 2018 13:55:04 GMT -5
Did they refer to themselves as writers during their lifetimes, though? I am pretty damn certain Van Gogh referred to himself as a painter, and that Emily Dickinson referred to herself as a poet. I know Toole tried and failed to get his novel published -- his mother succeeded in getting CoD published eleven years after his death. All of them devoted themselves to their craft. It wasn't something they took casually. Van Gogh painted 2000 paintings in a decade -- is that someone who's just diddling around, going "psshaw, I'm not a real painter"? Emily Dickinson wrote 1800 poems -- was that like knitting for her? I doubt it. Regardless of whether they achieved success in their lifetime, I'd be surprised if they didn't think of themselves as artists in their fields. I'll say there are a lot of as-yet unpublished writers out there who are far better described as "writers" than James Patterson (whose novels are mostly ghost-written). But he makes a mint.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 17, 2018 14:06:43 GMT -5
One of our acquaintances who writes a lot of poetry refers to himself as a poet. But he never seeks to get any of it published. He just posts it. But I'd bet all of us who know him think of him as a poet.
Actually, pretty much no one who doesn't write greeting card poems can actually bring in money as a poet, regardless of talent. Even a lot of fancy pancy journals don't pay, or pay only a comparative pittance. You write poetry for love, not money. And yet those of us who write it will spend hours (or days or weeks) working on a one-page poem. Does the fact we don't make a living at it make us not poets? If so, there pretty much are no poets.
I just don't regard money as the line. I regard seriousness about your craft and participation in it as the line.
As I noted above, I think it's different if you have a profession that requires particular training, education, or licensing, etc. You can't just call yourself a doctor, lawyer, scientist, etc. Then you don't have to practice your craft at all -- you just need to have the requisite qualifications. I need never practice law, but I will still be a lawyer.
ETA:
I'd also argue that there are a handful of labels that wouldn't necessarily require you to get a special degree or license, but since they are not activities you can participate in all by yourself, they DO require a certain level of recognition in order for you to practice your craft. Acting, for example. You really can't act without being in some kind of productions, even if they are minor ones. Unlike writing and painting, you can't diligently work at them all on your own.
But if, say, Laurence Olivier, had decided never to accept a fee for his work, would he be any less an actor?
An ex-flame of mine was a trained actor, but has not as yet achieved fame and fortune. That said, he's had a steady stream of minor commercials, small parts, etc. Like many actors, he has to have a day job. But I'd still say he's an actor. He's acting. You just never heard of him.
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Post by robeiae on Apr 17, 2018 14:58:47 GMT -5
I call myself a writer and money isn't the line at all, imo.
But I don't call myself an author, because for me that implies published author. Still, I wouldn't object to someone else calling themselves an author, on the basis that they had written something for public consumption, whether they were paid or not paid.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 17, 2018 16:16:08 GMT -5
I call myself a writer and money isn't the line at all, imo. But I don't call myself an author, because for me that implies published author. Still, I wouldn't object to someone else calling themselves an author, on the basis that they had written something for public consumption, whether they were paid or not paid. I can live with that distinction between "writer" and "author." I would be more likely to use "writer" to describe myself than "author." I would use "poet", too. God knows there aren't that many people actively writing poetry, and hell, I've even been paid for one (actually, come to think of it, two -- one was a long time ago). But though I've written an as-yet-unpublished novel in addition to my vast pile of poetry, I wouldn't use "author" to describe myself. I would describe MarkEsq. or Vince as "authors." Was thinking about this just now -- I also think you can self-describe yourself as a singer or musician, even if you don't give public performances. Or a linguist, even if you are not trained as such (my grandfather, who had an eighth grade education formally, spoke three languages fluently -- he was born in Spain, came to the U.S., and married an Italian wife -- plus he could speak pretty decent French, because he lived there for a bit and had a talent for languages). But "geologist"...yeah, I think that requires a certain specific education.
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Post by Optimus on Apr 17, 2018 22:32:18 GMT -5
It's a tricky question because there's a not-so-fuzzy line between "degree" and "profession," at least from my perspective. But, at the same time, I can't necessarily explain where that line is. But, when someone has crossed it, "I know it when I see it." Mainly, I feel that it has to do with what one's actual profession is (i.e., what they do every day as their career that they get paid for). A degree is not a profession, but most professions require a specific degree in that area (and some require official certification). Take Mayam Bialik, the apparently book smart yet bafflingly stupid star of Blossom and The Big Bang Theory. She has a PhD in neuroscience and has in the past referred to herself as a "neuroscientist" and doesn't ever correct journalists who fawn over her by calling her a "scientist." But she is not a scientist. She is an actress who just happens to have a doctorate. Yes, she has a PhD in neuroscience but she does not do research. She does not teach neuroscience at a university. She has never published a single article in a peer-reviewed journal. She has admitted that she doesn't even pay attention to current scientific literature in neuroscience. She likely hasn't done anything remotely related to neuroscience in over a decade, since she earned her degree in 2007. Her profession is acting. That's what she does on a daily basis. "Neuroscientist" is a profession, not a degree. If you graduate law school but never pass the bar and never do any legal work of any kind, you are not a lawyer. Having a degree in neuroscience does not automatically make one a "neuroscientist," just like having a degree in biology doesn't automatically make one a "biologist." One of my bachelor's is in journalism, and I wrote a few articles for the university paper when I was an undergrad, but I'd be deluded to call myself a "journalist." I also hate the term "entrepreneur." Not just because the degree is a total waste of money but because the word "entrepreneur" is, at least for most people, just a pretentious way of saying "unemployed." People who actually own businesses don't call themselves "entrepreneurs." They call themselves "small business owners" or "CEOs." Only people I've heard call themselves "entrepreneur" with a straight face are rich-as-shit venture capitalists and unemployed millennials who have no idea what to do with their lives. Sorry, but I disagree. And this might just be my biased perspective from the academic world. Perhaps people outside of that context will view this differently. But, this is just one Opty's opinion. "Historian," to me, is a profession, one that requires mass amounts of scholarship to the point that a person is considered an authority in an area of history. Most people recognized as historians have PhDs (or masters) and work at universities or they nationally publish books. Unless you are actually conducting historical research and publishing it in peer-reviewed journals or books and/or working at a university, an academic institution, or a historical institution/organization (including museums), then you are not a "historian." You're just a guy with degrees in history. If doing that kind of work is your main profession for which you get paid, then yes you're a historian. But, if you simply have a love of history, and you like to look stuff up and read stuff, and you've never published any scholarly, peer-reviewed work, or you're not employed specifically as a historian, then you're a hobbyist. And if you blog about it, then you're a blogger. That's fine. There's nothing wrong with that. I know lots of smart people who know a lot about different subjects and some of them even write really great blogs. But, I think that calling oneself by a professional title for a career that one does not have is exaggerating, to put it mildly. By those standards, any conspiracy nut on YouTube or anti-vax mommy blogger who's "done their research" can also call him/herself a "historian." Or, because my sister cut my niece's hair when she was younger, she could call herself a "hair stylist." And, historians seem to be a bit different in a certain respect as well; i.e., recognized authority. People who are "historians" are usually recognized by other historians and academic peers as authorities in an area of history. I think that'd be another criterion that would qualify one as a historian. I don't have my PhD yet (working on it), but I'm a "research psychologist" (I almost never call myself that, though). Not simply because that's what one of my master's is in, but because that's the work that I do every day and I get paid for it. After I get my PhD, if I ever stopped doing psychology research, I could still call myself "Dr.," but I wouldn't call myself a "research psychologist," because that is a profession. That's just my take on it, though. People are free to call themselves just about whatever they want. Some do it for legitimate reasons. Some do it for ego. Some do it so they can impress people at parties. As for me, I just call myself Opty. That's impressive enough.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 18, 2018 8:30:17 GMT -5
I don't think it's always an easily defined line. The one time I do think it's easy is if you are referring to yourself as something that, by definition, requires a particular education, degree, or license you do not have.
But barring that, I think it's more a question over whether you are being misleading under the circumstances. I think it's perfectly okay and accurate for me to call myself a poet. However, if the question was "so what to you do for a living?" that's not accurate.
Similarly, I have never won a race nor been paid to run one, but I think my running 20-40+ miles a week (depending on whether I'm training for something) for well over a decade qualifies me to call myself a runner. Unless, of course, the question is "what do you do for a living."
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Post by Amadan on Apr 18, 2018 8:30:17 GMT -5
I have a graduate degree in Computer Science. And I do software engineering for a living. But I don't call myself an "engineer" or a "computer scientist," though many of my peers do, because to me, "Computer Scientist" implies academic/industrial research (which I no longer do, really), and frankly, "software engineer" is a title invented to make computer programmers sound more prestigious. (Actual engineers have to take much harder math and physics classes, and pass professional licensing, among other things.) There is a lot of nuance in a title. It's not just about whether or not you do it for a living, or even make money at it.
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Post by robeiae on Apr 18, 2018 9:52:53 GMT -5
Well, in defense of myself--and others, I'm sure--I would suggrest that the title of this thread is important, here: self-referential.
I can tell people that I am a writer freely. They are not forced to accept it, of course, but it is a part of how I define myself. "Father" would be another such label, as would "gooner." And yes, so would "historian." Granted, there is an academic element implied in the last, but the degree is evidence in this regard.
But fundamentally, it still is self-referential, and if that's the point, I think it's a-okay. Because the label is in this sense simply shorthand for the degree earned, imo.
Now, where is might become problematic is when that self-referential aspect is twisted into commercial use, and perhaps this is more true of the hard sciences, along with law. I'm not trying to get over on anyone when I tell them I'm an historian. And frankly, I can't think of the last time saying such ever had any impact whatsoever. "Writer" has a great deal more, actually.
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