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Post by celawson on Jun 18, 2018 11:54:46 GMT -5
I’m going to venture back in here for two reasons - one, to wave to NT — hello and glad to see you!!!
And the other to defend myself against a mischaracterization of that email. I did not ask anyone to back off. As a matter of fact, the second line of that email was “I DEFINITELY do not want any special treatment.” I sent that email to admit that I am not a great debater not an expert on that topic but I was participating to help the fledgling forum despite my time constraints. I did that because frankly I was perplexed at the hostility. And yes, personal attacks. But I never asked anyone to stop arguing.
Thank you to Rob for not locking this thread yet. I found this to be clarifying for me. I realized it’s not TCG as a whole that mirrors the current animosity in our contemporary politics. And I thank Amadan for giving me a little insight into where he’s coming from. It was big of him to admit he could be nicer sometimes. And I admit I am sensitive. I wish I could write things off as “so and so is just being an asshole” and move on, like others here are able to. And maybe I will get to that point someday. Or maybe I shouldn’t want to. After all,I’m in the career I chose because I want to heal people. So that says something about how I’m wired. That’s on me. I wasn’t asking for holding hands and singing kumbaya. But I think most people who read this thread realize that.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 18, 2018 12:56:26 GMT -5
Again I shall refer you to any number of my arguments with Rob. Certainly you were asking to be treated differently than we treat each other, and you still are. You are also asking to be treated differently than, say, nighttimer and Amadan treat each other (in an argument that is heated but hasn't breached the rules), or than Prozyan, Amadan and I are treating each other today in the migration thread.
And now you are doing a not-particularly well-veiled "all of you are nice and reasonable except Cass!"
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Post by Amadan on Jun 18, 2018 13:18:17 GMT -5
I’m going to venture back in here for two reasons - one, to wave to NT — hello and glad to see you!!! And the other to defend myself against a mischaracterization of that email. I did not ask anyone to back off. As a matter of fact, the second line of that email was “I DEFINITELY do not want any special treatment.” I sent that email to admit that I am not a great debater not an expert on that topic but I was participating to help the fledgling forum despite my time constraints. I did that because frankly I was perplexed at the hostility. And yes, personal attacks. But I never asked anyone to stop arguing. Thank you to Rob for not locking this thread yet. I found this to be clarifying for me. I realized it’s not TCG as a whole that mirrors the current animosity in our contemporary politics. And I thank Amadan for giving me a little insight into where he’s coming from. It was big of him to admit he could be nicer sometimes. And I admit I am sensitive. I wish I could write things off as “so and so is just being an asshole” and move on, like others here are able to. And maybe I will get to that point someday. Or maybe I shouldn’t want to. After all,I’m in the career I chose because I want to heal people. So that says something about how I’m wired. That’s on me. I wasn’t asking for holding hands and singing kumbaya. But I think most people who read this thread realize that. Look, some people don't like other people. That will happen in any forum. NT and I are probably never going to be friends. Christine and Opty are probably never going to be friends. You and Cass are probably not going to be friends. You can either live with the fact that some people don't like you and will sometimes be mean, or go elsewhere. I am not saying that because I want you to go elsewhere. But if you want TCG to be like your living room where you're sitting around with friends, and if conversation becomes too heated you all back off to avoid hurt feelings, I don't think that is what anyone else expects and you're going to be disappointed (and hurt).
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Post by celawson on Jun 18, 2018 13:53:21 GMT -5
Again I shall refer you to any number of my arguments with Rob. Certainly you were asking to be treated differently than we treat each other, and you still are. You are also asking to be treated differently than, say, nighttimer and Amadan treat each other (in an argument that is heated but hasn't breached the rules), or than Prozyan, Amadan and I are treating each other today in the migration thread. And now you are doing a not-particularly well-veiled "all of you are nice and reasonable except Cass!" Nope. I haven’t seen any personal attacks in the migration thread. No “fuck off to another thread” no “Church Lady” no accusations of cutting and pasting, no purposeful and inaccurate hyperbole of one person’s arguments, no cartoonish descriptions of what the other is doing (singing kumbaya or clutching their pearls). It’s very different from what I’m talking about. Look, I’m seriously out of this thread now. I’ve said my piece, you’ve more than said yours, I don’t think it’s constructive to keep going. If some people think a little harder about what they’re saying to someone before they hit post, and I remind myself we aren’t actually in a support group, then this conversation was worth having, IMO.
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Post by Christine on Jun 18, 2018 19:21:19 GMT -5
Really, for such a small group, we seem to have a disproportionate amount of interpersonal drama. That I don't agree with, or with Cass's theory that it's based on carry-overs from elsewhere. I never considered celaw my "rival" or "nemesis," nor you, nor even NT. Sometimes people just argue about shit, and some of those arguments push buttons harder than others. *shrug* When someone pisses me off, though, I think "Okay, that person is being an asshole." Whereas when you or celaw get pissed off, you see it as an indication of how dire and savage this forum is.
Nah, it's never been about 'the forum,' other than that it's unbalanced and/or lacking representation of other viewpoints, I think, in some areas. I don't get pissed off or have nemeses; I get hurt, I get insecure, I internalize criticism. It's not that I want people to agree with me, or pat me on the head. I want to argue and have someone argue back. But when it turns into "you say this so you must be X (character/behavioral trait)," or, "what you're *really* saying here is X" when that's not what I'm saying... assigning mental deficiencies, mal-intent... these are as personally insulting to me as "you're a racist" or whatever. Point being, I strongly empathize with c.e. Eventually I get around to, not that a person is an asshole, necessarily, more like, that person has a inability for whatever reason to express a point of view without disparaging the person who disagrees with him/her, and I'm done with that person, because it's always going to hurt when people make judgments about me personally, about my motives, about my capacity to think and understand, etc. - simply based on disagreeing with whatever "obvious" evidence they've presented. And those are the sort of personal attacks here that are A-OK, as far as I can tell, not *actually* personal, which is weird, but whatever. I'm perfectly content with reading what people have to say, putting forth my own POV on occasion, and engaging in discussions with people who I'm fairly certain aren't going to issue the sort of judgments heretofore listed. We are all free to stay or leave. I like a sufficient number of people here and enjoy what they have to say, so I stay... well, lurk, mostly. ETA: And if NT was banned for that post he linked to? That is some fucked up shit right there. Because based on the rules here of what constitutes a personal attack, that wasn't one. Not even close.
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Post by Amadan on Jun 18, 2018 20:08:13 GMT -5
I don't get pissed off or have nemeses; I get hurt, I get insecure, I internalize criticism. It's not that I want people to agree with me, or pat me on the head. I want to argue and have someone argue back. But when it turns into "you say this so you must be X (character/behavioral trait)," or, "what you're *really* saying here is X" when that's not what I'm saying... assigning mental deficiencies, mal-intent... these are as personally insulting to me as "you're a racist" or whatever. Point being, I strongly empathize with c.e.
Sometimes, the line between "Your argument is stupid" and "You are stupid" can be pretty fine, and, let's face it, semantic. Several of us here (not you, for the most part) will trash an argument in such a way as to make it clear what we think of the mind that produced said argument.
Which is to say, I understand what you're saying, and I do empathize, a little, believe it or not. It is usually not my intention to be hurtful. OTOH, sometimes my patience and forbearance only extends so far, and while I realize that telling someone off and toeing the line while doing it may not be kind or particularly productive, and certainly not effective in getting them to reconsider their position.... well, my position is that I do not suffer fools gladly. Your position might be that I'm just an asshole.
FWIW, if that post alone was the cause and if NT's version is accurate, I'd have to agree that it doesn't seem over the line relative to what's been in bounds before.
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Post by Christine on Jun 18, 2018 20:40:20 GMT -5
Over the last several months of reading your posts, I have surmised that you are, in fact, a human. Often a likable one.
Now that that's over with, we need a brawl.
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Post by nighttimer on Jun 19, 2018 20:04:17 GMT -5
Actually, c.e. Lawson invited you because I specifically asked her to do so (I no longer being on the board we were all on, and thus unable to ask you myself). And I asked Rob first (it being his site) to make sure he was cool with it. Which, for the record, he was. Sorry if that takes away from your feeling like an unwelcome rebel who crashed the party against the will of the jackboot establishment, but those are the facts. As I believe I told you, actually, when you first arrived.
Perhaps you did. Perhaps you didn't. What matters is you knew who I was and what I was like from Day One. I'm the same guy here I was there. Just like you are and robeiae is and everyone else here. Nobody's changed anything but the URL. Everything else is pretty much the same old same old. And so did I. And yet I accepted the invitation anyway. Snakes gonna snake. No matter who extended the invitation or whatever the impetus for it was is irrelevant. No matter who gave their blessing for it is unimportant. I don't have a feeling like I'm an unwelcome rebel, Cassandra. I know this for a fact based on what went down. The final evidence was the 60-day ban for disagreeing with a Moderator/Board Owner. It was as capricious as it was unwarranted. It came without warning and for...well, I don't know what it was for and I didn't have a chance to find out. My only official notice was the " YOU ARE BANNED FROM THIS FORUM" and the formal announcement of the ban I couldn't read until after it was over. It didn't provide any reason for it. I'm not so improper to share the details of the message, but I did want to get it on the record what happened even if the why it happened remains elusive. The two people who need to know the details of the announcement already do. Only one of them knows the reason. While the " unwelcome rebel who crashed the party against the will of the jackboot establishment" snark may only seem like snark to you, it's a harsh reality to me. Minus the "jackboot establishment" part. Two guys who plain and simple do not like each other, do not respect other and therefore cannot coexist peacefully together is a far more accurate descriptor of the state of affairs between the proprietor of this joint and myself. Sometimes you're just not going to make a thing work and that's all there is to it.
At times that's been true. Other times, not so much. My most recent ban was for the unforgivable crime of disagreeing with the guy who runs the joint, so all things being equal, they aren't. Not even close and they can't be when someone has authority to exact punishment or revenge or whatever motivation flits in their head at the time.
That's true, but then so do you. You're not shy about going scorched earth on someone when you've got blood in your eyes either and you're not alone in that boat. There's a few members of the Colline Gate who don't mind getting down and dirty in their debating style and they like to mix it up with as many low blows, rabbit punches, gouging, biting and other nastiness until a ref steps in to break it up. Sometimes that happens. Sometimes it's the ref who is part of the nastiness.
The difference between you and I, Cassandra is that I know I'm hard to deal with (like when I'm awake) whereas you seem to regard exhibiting the exact same behavior on your part as merely a charming character quirk.
Sure I do and so do you so don't play the innocent, Amadan. The difference between us is from me the anger is justified and the emotion is authentic. Oh, and backed up by documented FACT. Yes, I understand that you believe that. That's a reasonable point, and not one I would even disagree with. (Except that rather than assuming that one is right and the other is wrong, I think it's more likely that both have a piece of the truth and neither the complete picture.) The next step you usually take, however, is to insist that because you're black, you are right on all things race-related, and any white person who disagrees with you is ignorant and stupid if not a vile racist. I've never insisted because I'm Black I'm right on all things race-related and I defy you to prove otherwise. I've never insisted because I'm Black any White person who disagrees with me is ignorant and stupid and possibly a vile racist and I defy you to prove that to be otherwise as well. What I will insist is that when it comes to living in this country and knowing and experiencing what life was like and still is as a Black Man in America, there's nothing you can teach me except how you as a White Man in America perceive what that means as far as race is lived and experienced. That's the only thing of value you could possibly have to enlighten me about, Amadan and it's in an area in which you are the unquestioned authority. Anything else is Whitesplaining. I'll add -- I've temp banned you twice. If I recall correctly, I actually AGREED with the actual substance of both of your arguments. You got the temp bans from me because I said "tone that down or else" (at least once to the entire thread, and not just you, as I recall). And you said, essentially "oh yeah? Well I'm not GONNA tone it down. What are YOU gonna do about it?" Well, uh, yeah. . I'm gonna "or else." You kinda haven't left me a choice. The reason I have not banned Amadan or Opty is because when I say "Cut that out," they do. If they disagree, they do so in a measured way. (Rob doesn't give warnings. But nor is he obligated to do so. I only do it because I'm such a fucking sweetheart.) It is also the case that much of what you (and c.e., for that matter) consider in "personal attacks" are in fact not. They are harsh, they are mean, they are withering as a flame blower, they may not feel good, but they are attacks on your argument or on your method of arguing. And for fuck's sake, take a goddamn look at what we DO let you say, including to us, and ask yourself if you'd be allowed to get away with it elsewhere. Really? You think Mod X at YZ site would let you scream abuse at her? Oh, I have taken a look at what you DO let me say, including to us (us being you and robeiae, I presume?) and I also look at what you say to me:
As far as " ask yourself if you'd be allowed to get away with it elsewhere. Really? You think Mod X at YZ site would let you scream abuse at her" goes, NO, I don't think Mod X at YZ site would let me scream abuse at her. Mostly because I don't scream abuse, but when I do, there's a Mod there to warn first and shoot later. At Mods X at YZ site, or on this one other either, if I did all this horrible shit, why would I ever be allowed back? Certainly not because I'm so charming or I double the amount of Melanin usually found on boards like this. Plus, it's the wrong question. A better question would be, why is it I've been banned five or six times in the space of two years here and not at all in that same time by Mods X at YZ site? Can I really be that much more of an asshole here that there? Or is the banhammer raised a little sooner and dropped a lot harder here---at least on ME? You pride yourself on your restraint, Cassandra, but you need to work on your perspicacity. You see my flaws far clearer than your own. I started this board--as most of you know--in response to a house-cleaning at another site. Here's something many of you probably don't know, however: The political/current events discussions at that board really got interesting because of an influx of new members from yet another site (devoted to screen writing) that went through a purge (this was many moons ago). Many of these new members (including people like Dave Clary) were hardcore partisans and skilled messageboard posters. The resulting clashes not only lead to quite interesting (imo) discussions, but also drew more and more people into the forum, growing it and the main site and raising the presence of both in the web. And truth be told, people crossed lines a lot. I was (and still am) sympathetic to management there and the problems associated with moderating such a combative forum. Anyway, TCG is not either of those sites; it exists only for the purposes of the political discussions. And I'm pretty sure that these days, most people are having their partisan-angled discussions in comment trails and on FB. Individual messageboards have been around since USENET, Prodigy, and Compuserve, but they really can't compete--imo--with social media these days. Still, I prefer to have a place to wax political and philosophical on the issues of the day, without having to worry about how such discussions might impact real world friendships (in other words, I'm simply unwilling to "get into it" with FB friends), and with the knowledge that other participants can offer interesting and original viewpoints. And obviously, having a lot of such participants makes it all that much better. Truth be told, that's a high bar, one that--mostly because of luck--the afore-mentioned site actually managed to achieve for a sustained period of time. TCG is unlikely to ever attain such a level of participation. I know that now, even if I had some pie-in-the-sky hopes early on. Nonetheless, I'm still going to let it keep going, as long as people keep posting. If it ever dwindles down to just me and Cass, I'll probably shut it down. As to rules, I like the ones we have, so I'm sticking with them. That said, everyone is an adult here--as far as I know--and everyone probably knows when they've crossed a line. Two simple checks to run before you hit "post": Are you attacking an argument, a point of view, or a person? Is what you've written mostly about an actual issue, or mostly about another member? And I'll leave this thread open for another day or two, provided people can avoid insults, but I'll be locking it at some point in the near future. Thank you for allowing me to have my say and I mean that with all sincerity. I hope your board survives. I even name-checked and hotlinked The Colline Gate to the membership of a once, lively and vibrant debate board which has seen its better days and now is a shell of itself as its erstwhile owners have been absent for over five years. Maybe some of them will check out your board and decide they like the look of the place. The only way this board is ever going to reach its potential is by bringing in more folks who want somewhere other than social media and Quara to engage in discussion and debate. I give you credit for trying. That's more than a lot of people do who only talk about how they'd run a board, but aren't ever going to actually DO it. Hopefully, this board can grow to a point where it still feels comfortable, but not so much that it becomes a laborious chore and tedious. Whatever this board grows up to be---if it lives long enough to do so---it will be what you make it. I don't have any part in that. I’m going to venture back in here for two reasons - one, to wave to NT — hello and glad to see you!!! Hello back, celawson. It's been a rough five months for the family, but much rougher on my brother. He's not home yet and nobody knows when he will be or what condition he'll be in when he does, but nobody's promised tomorrow will be a good day, right? Today might have been the biggest Shit Day anyone's had---and maybe tomorrow might be worse. But it might not and that's reason enough to get out of bed in the morning. He's going to face the future the same way the rest of us do. One minute at a time, one step at a time, one day at a time. That I don't agree with, or with Cass's theory that it's based on carry-overs from elsewhere. I never considered celaw my "rival" or "nemesis," nor you, nor even NT. Sometimes people just argue about shit, and some of those arguments push buttons harder than others. *shrug* When someone pisses me off, though, I think "Okay, that person is being an asshole." Whereas when you or celaw get pissed off, you see it as an indication of how dire and savage this forum is.
Nah, it's never been about 'the forum,' other than that it's unbalanced and/or lacking representation of other viewpoints, I think, in some areas. I don't get pissed off or have nemeses; I get hurt, I get insecure, I internalize criticism. It's not that I want people to agree with me, or pat me on the head. I want to argue and have someone argue back. But when it turns into "you say this so you must be X (character/behavioral trait)," or, "what you're *really* saying here is X" when that's not what I'm saying... assigning mental deficiencies, mal-intent... these are as personally insulting to me as "you're a racist" or whatever. Point being, I strongly empathize with c.e. Eventually I get around to, not that a person is an asshole, necessarily, more like, that person has a inability for whatever reason to express a point of view without disparaging the person who disagrees with him/her, and I'm done with that person, because it's always going to hurt when people make judgments about me personally, about my motives, about my capacity to think and understand, etc. - simply based on disagreeing with whatever "obvious" evidence they've presented. And those are the sort of personal attacks here that are A-OK, as far as I can tell, not *actually* personal, which is weird, but whatever. I'm perfectly content with reading what people have to say, putting forth my own POV on occasion, and engaging in discussions with people who I'm fairly certain aren't going to issue the sort of judgments heretofore listed. We are all free to stay or leave. I like a sufficient number of people here and enjoy what they have to say, so I stay... well, lurk, mostly. ETA: And if NT was banned for that post he linked to? That is some fucked up shit right there. Because based on the rules here of what constitutes a personal attack, that wasn't one. Not even close. Golden Rule, Christine. Whomever has the Gold gets to make the Rules. I can't say I'm happy about that but there's nothing I can do about it. Besides what I've done about it, but even that was only with the approval (or disapproval) of someone else. Sometimes we have to meet the world where it is and how it is. Sometimes you have to know when it's reached closing time and you need to get the hell up and get on with your business because you are in the way of theirs. Oh, and I always appreciated you keeping it real and having my back when you thought I was right and getting in my face when you thought I was wrong. It's nice to know I'm not such a Loud Scary Angry Black Guy that it ever kept you from speaking up and not with a whisper, but a SCREAM. Respect. I got'cha back too.
FWIW, if that post alone was the cause and if NT's version is accurate, I'd have to agree that it doesn't seem over the line relative to what's been in bounds before.
Thank you for your fair and open-minded reading of the matter, Amadan ( and you'll never know how much that hurt).
Good Night and Good Luck.
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