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Post by Deleted on Jun 25, 2018 14:58:36 GMT -5
And in law, non-citizens probably aren't protected by the constitution as much as citizens. C I'm not Cass, but I'm pretty sure once someone is within US borders there are afforded the full protections of the US Constitution. Or at least supposed to be. *unbans self from thread long enough to say "yes, Prozyan is generally correct, except, as Amadan notes for things such as voting that are specifically reserved for citizens, and so the Supreme Court has held on several occasions."* (The banning myself thing is half a joke, btw -- I definitely don't want to kill the thread, there's plenty more to say, the situation isn't anywhere close to over, and yes indeed I will pop in if someone says something I just can't stand not countering or if there is some yuuuuuge development. I felt like I had to try to make sure everyone understand why I think this policy is so incredibly horrifying on every level. But I don't want to just rant on my own and drive everyone away, and I was afraid that was what was happening.) ETA: This is really the short answer, btw -- of course a citizen need not cross in illegally, so would not be in this situation. The rights for them in immigration proceedings aren't quite identical to a citizens in a criminal proceeding. So yeah, Max has a point that the rights are not precisely identical for illegal aliens and citizens across the board. E.g, in a regular criminal proceeding for a citizen, you have a right to free appointed counsel if you can't afford it, period. Not, from what I understand, the case in immigration court. They don't have to appoint you a free lawyer. But a ton of lawyers would be glad to provide pro-bono services here, except the Trump admin has made it difficult for them to provide it. (I'm following a few such lawyers on Twitter. Stormy Daniels' lawyer Michael Avenati is now representing some of these migrants.) But absofuckinglutely, these people have constitutional rights.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 25, 2018 15:06:33 GMT -5
All that being said, can ICE just summarily deport non-citizens without a trial? There you would have to ask Cass (or another lawyer), but my understanding is no - since the non-citizen has committed a crime, you would have to charge him, and then he'd get all the usual rights of a criminal defendant. As a practical matter, ICE can probably tell the people they round up "Leave voluntarily and we won't put you in jail and generally make your life suck." But no, they can't just send brown people to Guatemala. They can't just deport someone who claims asylum without hearing and trying that claim (and they are currently doing that). They can't hold them indefinitely without hearing that claim or access to a lawyer to help them or any ability to assert their claim (and they are currently doing that, despite the fact that a ton of lawyers are ready, willing, and able to provide pro-bono help for these people). They can't hold them in the most horrific circumstances possible just to try to force them to drop their asylum claim and be voluntarily deported. And they are doing that. They sure as fuck can't take their kids away and hold them hostage saying "hey, if you waive your asylum claim, we'll let you have your kids back when we deport you." And yes, they are doing that. And they sure as fuck can't take your kids away and deport you without them. And god help us, they are doing that. www.theguardian.com/us-news/2018/jun/24/all-i-hear-is-my-daughter-crying-salvadoran-father-yearns-to-see-his-child-again
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Post by Deleted on Jun 25, 2018 15:30:10 GMT -5
markesq -- anything you want to school me on/add to the above posts? You're the criminal law guy.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 25, 2018 15:57:54 GMT -5
They also have freedom of religion, btw. They are taking away items like rosaries from the migrants -- pretty important items for devout Catholics. Also, their wedding rings and anything else the migrants might have, including cash, cell phones, identification, children's drawings... Oh, and they aren't necessarily giving those items back when they are deporting them. They often boot them with the clothes on their backs, and nothing else they might have come with. www.snopes.com/fact-check/are-rosaries-taken-immigrants-border/ As if these people were not poor and desperate enough. Fuck ICE, and if anyone thinks this is okay, fuck them too. If to the extent "Christians" think this is all A-OK, I am pretty sure Jesus would add a "fuck you" as well. I'm quite certain He'd at least be smashing some tables at ICE.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 25, 2018 16:15:16 GMT -5
Oh, how lovely! Even when asylum seekers cross legally at a port of entry, the Trump admin is taking their kids and pushing them out without hearing their claim. Twitter thread (note the blue checkmark -- this is not some random anonymous troll). I'm just going to quote parts because it is long, but the first link will take you to the entire thread. And THAT'S someone who crossed legally with a legitimate asylum case, and who is fortunate enough to have had powerful voices in the U.S. take interest in her case and try to help. But pooor, pooor Trump is getting picked on and Sarah Sanders can't get a beer. ETA: Okay. Am really going to try and stop ranting now. Can I blame it all on Prozyan and Amadan for mentioning my name? (Seriously, though, this is just freaking appalling, any way you slice it. It really is.)
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Post by Amadan on Jun 25, 2018 18:33:59 GMT -5
They can't just deport someone who claims asylum without hearing and trying that claim (and they are currently doing that). They can't hold them indefinitely without hearing that claim or access to a lawyer to help them or any ability to assert their claim (and they are currently doing that, despite the fact that a ton of lawyers are ready, willing, and able to provide pro-bono help for these people). They can't hold them in the most horrific circumstances possible just to try to force them to drop their asylum claim and be voluntarily deported. And they are doing that. They sure as fuck can't take their kids away and hold them hostage saying "hey, if you waive your asylum claim, we'll let you have your kids back when we deport you." And yes, they are doing that. And they sure as fuck can't take your kids away and deport you without them. And god help us, they are doing that. www.theguardian.com/us-news/2018/jun/24/all-i-hear-is-my-daughter-crying-salvadoran-father-yearns-to-see-his-child-again
Not defending any of those things. But...
#1 & #2. Are people being deported without hearings?
Not sure about #3 - "most horrific circumstances possible" sounds like hyperbole. And a lot of the horrific circumstances they are being held in are for reasons previously discussed - the funding isn't there for better facilities. That doesn't make it right, but it's not necessarily a deliberate choice to ignore the Constitution.
#4 and #5 - We've been over this, right? Because of the Flores 20-day rule, if they charge someone with a crime, they can, in fact, take their kids away. As for telling them they can have their kids back if they drop their asylum claim... again, I am not saying it's right, but I don't see how under the law it is actually violating the Constitution, since prosecutors can always offer to let defendants go, or plea down, if they agree to such-and-such. Don't see how this is different: "Under the law, if we have to hold you for more than 20 days, your kids will go into foster care because we can't keep them longer. But if you drop your asylum claim and don't fight deportation, that won't happen."
I am not saying this is right. But you still haven't explained how any of it is illegal.
There are all kinds of ways to screw people over that don't actually violate the Constitution.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 25, 2018 18:45:06 GMT -5
Yes, people are being deported without hearings. And without their children and their belongings. I know I'm posting a lot, but I've said all that and posted cites.
They have a right to all of those things. Thus, they are not getting due process, which they have a right to under the constitution. What is happening to them, many of them, is unconstitutional. (Unconstitutional is not quite the same thing as "illegal," but yanno, it still means you can't do it.)
I'm not sure whether you've been reading the admittedly large number of cites and stories I've been posting, but if you need more on the horrific conditions, I will find some and post them. They are holding many for weeks in the same clothes, without showers -- or submitting them to scalding hot or freezing cold showers. The lights are on 24-7. They are being refused access to toilets, until they are forced to soil their cells, and then are left in that condition. Sure, that happens sometimes with prisoners of war, but, um, these are desperate refugees who committed a misdemeanor. (FFS, some of them actually crossed legally at ports of entry with asylum claims and papers -- see one of my posts above.)
You can't just hold people and not hear their claims for months and years, holding their kids hostage, and saying they can only escape if they surrender what may be a completely rightful asylum claim without a hearing. And then, on top of it, deport them minus all their possessions and their children.
Really, seriously, these people have constitutional rights. They are being violated. That's not OK.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 25, 2018 19:03:44 GMT -5
I'm going to post some more cites on prison conditions for the migrants, and also some legal discussions on why this is unconstitutional. But it probably won't be tonight, since I'm going out now (!!) and even MY friends will have problems with my spending the whole time posting on my phone.
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Post by maxinquaye on Jun 26, 2018 4:29:21 GMT -5
This is really the short answer, btw -- of course a citizen need not cross in illegally, so would not be in this situation Have a nice day out with your friends. But, I wasn't really talking about people crossing the border. Obviously citizens don't need to do that, and if they do they'll probably make sure to have passports. But.... earlier, when the focus was on DREAMers, many were rounded up by ICE well inside the country, at their places of employement or at their schools. I'd have to go back, but I think a couple of DREAMers were deported. So, if you're a brown skinned Latino person, when ICE comes near, you may end up in Guatemala City before evening. Regardless of status.
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Post by Amadan on Jun 26, 2018 9:44:29 GMT -5
Have a nice day out with your friends. But, I wasn't really talking about people crossing the border. Obviously citizens don't need to do that, and if they do they'll probably make sure to have passports. But.... earlier, when the focus was on DREAMers, many were rounded up by ICE well inside the country, at their places of employement or at their schools. I'd have to go back, but I think a couple of DREAMers were deported. So, if you're a brown skinned Latino person, when ICE comes near, you may end up in Guatemala City before evening. Regardless of status. I'm not saying that doesn't happen (there have been stories for years about US citizens accidentally being rounded up and finding themselves in Mexico), but under the law, it should not happen, and I'm pretty sure there is no official, stated policy under which it could happen. (ICE being sloppy because they think the administration has given them cover, OTOH, entirely possible.)
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Post by celawson on Jun 26, 2018 12:25:12 GMT -5
Just a quick note from me to let you know I'm not avoiding posting on TCG these last days. I traveled to Orlando for my daughter's volleyball tournament, and we've been BUSY since Saturday. I have very little free time, and the little I have, I'm spending at the pool where I only have my phone. That's not conducive to posting anything of substance. So i'm driving by these threads and hitting "like" here and there, but really can't discuss much until I return home at the end of the week.
And dear God, Robo and Christine and Don (out of 50 states and so few members, it's funny that at least 3 are from Florida) - the electrical storm we were in on the freeway to the hotel from the airport was...frightening. We dont' do electrical storms in So Cal. And my hair is three times its usual size. And I keep looking over my shoulder for gators. Other than that, we're having a great time.
That said, I'm glad we are no longer, as a practice, separating kids from parents. Hopefully the ones who have been will be reuinited soon (many have already), and hopefully we will do better pushing forward.
Oh, and Maxine Waters is cray.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 26, 2018 17:39:00 GMT -5
I meant it; I am taking a break. I'm sure you're all relieved. But since some asked for more of an explanation on legal/constitutional/other issues with the policy, this 128 page complaint by 17 state attorney generals should help. agportal-s3bucket.s3.amazonaws.com/uploadedfiles/Another/News/Press_Releases/complaint_6.pdf And fyi, the administration has now outright admitted that thousands of children will not be reunited with their parents, absent a court ordering them to do it or Congress passes a law forcing them to do so. This is not over. Not even close. Story at twitter link below. And now I'm going out for a drink in the sun.
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Post by Christine on Jun 26, 2018 18:30:56 GMT -5
And dear God, Robo and Christine and Don (out of 50 states and so few members, it's funny that at least 3 are from Florida) Ahem. *I* am from Florida. Those other dudes are from somewhere else and then they moved here. And actually, Don is officially not even here anymore, but rather everywhere. Enjoy your stay! Jsyk, you can stay in the pool if there are at least ten seconds between the lightning flash and the kaboom.
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Post by robeiae on Jun 26, 2018 19:41:17 GMT -5
Oh, and Maxine Waters is cray. I can't decide if that's more insulting to cray or to Ms. Waters...
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Post by celawson on Jun 26, 2018 23:28:08 GMT -5
Oh, and Maxine Waters is cray. I can't decide if that's more insulting to cray or to Ms. Waters... Hahaha. I realized as I was leaving my hotel room and laptop was already closed that we do, in fact, have a member named cray. I certainly didn’t mean to insult him, since I make it a practice not to insult cray especially while everyone else is insulting him. I merely meant she is crazy. I was born and raised in Los Angeles county not far from the city of L.A. and Ms Waters is known around these parts and usually not for being level headed and reasonable. Sorry, cray.
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