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Post by celawson on Jul 22, 2018 12:20:33 GMT -5
To answer Robo's question, regardless of whether or not Ocasio-Cortez wins her seat, she is entering politics amid the perfect storm of 1) anti-Trump sentiment, often hysterical 2) the immigration family/children/separation fiasco 3) young college graduates entering the real world with not a lot of knowledge (thank you, universities), not a lot of jobs (thank you gender studies majors), a lot of college debt (thank you universities' bloated admin budgets and government subsidies) and tons of "activism". 4) a wave of immigrant sympathy with the DACA issues looming overhead (I actually sympathize greatly with this issue and want amnesty for them)
Combine that with her identity (female, of color, 'working class', Bronx roots - you know, the BIO stuff), nice looks, good personality for politics, energy to stump for her campaign, and some smart decisions she has made appealing to the working class (including stretching the truth in her bio), and suddenly you have a socialist political and media darling. (Why yes, I'm giving her credit for a lot of things. And I don't think she is evil or nefarious. But you all assumed a LOT from me just commenting on some honesty issues in her bio. Speaking of what happens when you assume...)
I'm sure there are more, but those are quickly off the top of my head. Anyway, this perfect storm is translating into a surge of popularity and membership for the Democratic Socialists of America. Which IMO is a VERY bad thing. And I would venture to say that most of the young people who are attracted to socialism have about as much knowledge of it and its ramifications as Ocasio-Cortez does of economics.
So whether or not she wins her seat, she is doing some damage to the country. (IMO. I think that of anyone who advances the cause of socialism. And again, I'm not saying she's personally evil. (I never did.) But her politics are going to be damaging, if she or anyone institutes that platform.
If she wins, I think she will have a long learning curve and see what politics really are like. And like much of the "pie in the sky" policies of the hard left, she will see that much of it can't be realistically implemented or sustained. She might be perfectly suited for the swamp, who knows. I have a feeling she is. She does seem resourceful. And she has that "like" factor. I can only hope part of the fallout from her popularity is to further fracture the Dems at midterms.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 22, 2018 12:36:19 GMT -5
So, so, so fun that you were forced to acknowledge earlier in the thread that her bio claims were not actually particularly misleading at all -- the very MOST you can say here is that since her dad went to college and had a degree in architecture, that doesn't technically make him working class.
To recap the thread, they WERE struggling financially, working hard for a small income (a income that was in fact a "working-class" level income for NYC, and remodeling kitchens is hardly high-falutin' work, architecture degree or no). Her mom DID work menial working-class jobs to keep them in that tiny house. They WERE in dire straits when the dad died, and she WAS a teenager when that happened. She DID come from the Bronx, a very poor neighborhood, and her parents had to work like demons so they could move to a wee house in a better 'hood so she could go to a better school. She lives in the Bronx now. And she was waitressing and bartending for a living until now.
But there you are right back to how, though you are not saying she's evil, she was just so terribly deceptive in fooling her constituents (who are and were perfectly aware of all you think she "concealed" and adore her) in that manipulative way, and how
FFS.
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Post by celawson on Jul 22, 2018 12:40:47 GMT -5
Boy, you really are reaching now.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 22, 2018 12:43:45 GMT -5
Boy, you really are reaching now. I can't even. Prozyan, Amadan, Christine et al. -- she's all yours.
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Post by celawson on Jul 22, 2018 12:49:43 GMT -5
There is nothing in my most recent post that is terrible. Or in any of my posts in this thread. Think for a second what I actually said -- she wasn't fully honest in her bio. And that's true. You all agreed she fluffed some things and omitted others like "everyone does in their resume". That's all I was saying. It's certainly not worthy of the amount of anger you're showing. But go ahead, call in your henchmen. And while you're at it, maybe look at why you can't read any of my posts, reasonable or not, and not think the worst of everything I say. Your posts have biases, too, my dear.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 22, 2018 12:52:08 GMT -5
There is nothing in my most recent post that is terrible. Or in any of my posts in this thread. Think for a second what I actually said -- she wasn't fully honest in her bio. And that's true. You all agreed she fluffed some things and omitted others like "everyone does in their resume". That's all I was saying. It's certainly not worthy of the amount of anger you're showing. But go ahead, call in your henchmen. And while you're at it, maybe look at why you can't read any of my posts, reasonable or not, and not think the worst of everything I say. Your posts have biases, too, my dear. I am happy to stand upon our respective records for well-supported arguments, in this thread and otherwise. "henchmen". Jesus fucking christ on a stick. ETA: Here's something you seem to share with Donald Trump -- you seem to believe that by stubbornly reasserting and doubling down on your arguments no matter what, shifting the goalposts, ignoring points you don't want to answer, and accusing others, your argument somehow gets better, and there is some special virtue in doing so. (Cite? this thread.) It doesn't, and there isn't.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 22, 2018 13:01:40 GMT -5
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Post by celawson on Jul 22, 2018 13:13:17 GMT -5
There is also no special virtue in directing one of the most offensive phrases possible at a religious Catholic member of this discussion board.
The 'ignoring points' is especially rich. There's no way I can keep up with all your points. But I'm composing a post which answers a lot of that. It will be posted on another thread if I decide I want to engage more on this. It's interesting that NT and I have completely different politics, but we agree 100 percent on how you argue on this board.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 22, 2018 14:47:32 GMT -5
Post away. Neither my " henchmen"* nor I are stopping you. ETA: It is quite probably surprising to Amadan, Prozyan, Christine et al. to learn they are my henchmen, after the many times they have all heatedly debated me. It was certainly surprising, though gratifying, for me to learn it. Thank you all. I shall remind you of your henchmen status the next time you disagree with me, or the next time I need an adversary rubbed out or perhaps some extra cash. *ETA:
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Post by Deleted on Jul 22, 2018 15:59:12 GMT -5
Seriously, though, Ms. Ocasio-Cortez doesn't know beans about economics. I can see her undergraduate studies being a tad fuzzy after a number of years out of school (she may not have touched the subject since), but she really should have brushed up before she started babbling on about them as a candidate. The constituents in her district won't care, most likely, but I do. (I'm not all worked up about it, given all the rest of the shit happening at the moment, but I do care -- I like well-informed candidates.)
She's gonna win the general election, regardless. Still, though she won't need it to win, she should brush up now so she'll be a better congresswoman and hold her own better among her colleagues. And for her own sake, as well. The fawning stuff (which actually I think is largely because she's so young and cute and bubbly, and the pundits weren't expecting her to win) won't last forever -- it would behoove her to get a tad more solid before the gloss wears off.
This seems like a good place to mention that I'm not much of a Bernie Sanders fan, and grow less of one as time goes on. I groaned for several reasons when I saw that video Bernie tweeted.
I should also note -- the constituents in her district are not red-hot Marxists who are all about communist values. I doubt they know much about socialism or communism, most of them, and I'll bet they also wouldn't give a technical dictionary definition of working class. What they know and care about is that rich people seem to be getting all the tax breaks while the Powers That Be are talking about taking away their healthcare and benefits, and Ms. O-C thinks that's bad and says she'll do something about it. They know she's Puerto Rican and a bartender and lives in their hood and came door to door to talk to them. The whole "would they buy a socialist who spent formative years in Yorktown" is a total pffft, even if Ms. O-C's background had been more privileged than it was -- she's infinitely closer to their background than the incumbent was, and they liked that. BUT -- if she doesn't live up to her promise to fight for their benefits, healthcare, etc., and against big breaks for the wealthy, etc., some of the charm may start to wear off.
Or not. I mean, lots of Trump voters are actively hurting as a direct result of his policies -- e.g., his tariffs. And yet they continue to support him and blame it on the Dems. So perhaps Ms. O-C's constituents will do the same. Things have been getting steadily stupider, it seems, so maybe actual facts don't matter any more.
ETA:
I'm totally serious about thinking the youngest Congress critter ever!, pretty-n-vivacious, extremely telegenic thing are a large part of the fawning and attention she's getting, perhaps combined with her longshot status -- far more so than her actual politics.
Imagine for a moment that she were Alex Ocasio-Cortez, a heavy-set pimply young man without much personality -- but with exactly the same political views, background, and lack of knowledge on economics. Of course we can't know for sure, but I somehow doubt he'd get quite so much fawning press. Even if he were 28, he'd probably get a mention of his being the youngest congress critter ever, and certainly there would be discussion of his longshot win, but I find it hard to imagine he'd get the same level of adoration.
That said, I'm also sure that she's going to get plenty of sexist shit directed her way that Alex wouldn't get. I'm sure plenty are scoffing at her as being air-headed (which I don't think she is at all--I think she's smart but not as well-informed and experienced as she should be for her new role). And if and when things go sideways, and/or when the gloss wears off, she's probably going to get more rocks thrown at her than Alex would. (That tends to be the down side of getting lots of fawning attention right off the cuff.) Someone somewhere is already talking about how annoying they think her voice is, and criticizing her wardrobe and hair, and god help her when she puts on five pounds or gets a wrinkle or two because "who wants to watch her age on television" (can't recall who said that about Hillary, but it really pissed me off).
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Post by Christine on Jul 22, 2018 21:10:36 GMT -5
But go ahead, call in your henchmen. For the record, I am no henchman, nor can I be summoned at will.* Nor am I a socialist, a democratic socialist, a Bernie fan, or even a fan of this chic. *just out of curiosity tho what's the pay?
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Post by Deleted on Jul 22, 2018 21:20:11 GMT -5
You get a cut of all you manage to collect when I send you out to shake people down.
Michael Cohen called to apply, but I'm looking for smarter minions.
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Post by haggis on Jul 22, 2018 22:03:39 GMT -5
You get a cut of all you manage to collect when I send you out to shake people down. Michael Cohen called to apply, but I'm looking for smarter minions. You misspelled "onions."
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Post by Deleted on Jul 22, 2018 22:07:10 GMT -5
You get a cut of all you manage to collect when I send you out to shake people down. Michael Cohen called to apply, but I'm looking for smarter minions. You misspelled "onions." All onions are smarter than Michael Cohen, Haggis.
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Post by haggis on Jul 22, 2018 22:13:24 GMT -5
All onions are smarter than Michael Cohen, Haggis. Not all onions went to Thomas Cooley Law School, Cassyface.
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