You have been reacting as if we're pissing on McCain's grave. You obviously feel very strongly not just about McCain, but about the fact that we don't feel the same way you do about him. When I offer rather tepid criticism of someone, not hatred or disdain or contempt, just a general somewhat negative-leaning indifference, and end up being offered multiple walls of text, lawyerly arguments, and demands to rigorously explain what I mean by "great" and who does and does not qualify in return, I find it off-putting.
I get that you are a lawyer and you like rigorous, lawyerly arguments, and sometimes I can play, but when it's about something that I don't actually care about that much, combined with the fact that you are getting visibly upset at the lack of concurrence, I find it off-putting.
It's not at all that I'm bothered by your opinion of McCain, Cass. It's that you keep incessantly haranguing me with pages of lengthy, nitpicking posts because my opinion of McCain is different.
I understand why you feel the way that you do about him and I've said multiple times in this thread that I'm perfectly fine with you having the opinion that you have.
I just wish you'd extend me the same courtesy.
Last Edit: Aug 31, 2018 14:40:24 GMT -5 by Optimus
As for Rob, I submit that he didn't. I doubt very much he would defend Teddy Kennedy or anyone else he named in his post as a great man. In fact, maybe I'm wrong, but I don't think that's what Rob intended to do in putting forth Kennedy, Thurmond, and Kerry -- I think he was just putting forth people he thought were better or equal to McCain, to show why he disagreed with my choice of McCain.
Yeah, you're wrong again. I noted that if someone believed that Teddy K was a "great Senator," they could at least make a case for such a label, based on Kennedy's career in the Senate. And I more or less mocked the idea of Strom Thurmond being labelled a "great Senator." I'm at a loss how you arrived at the idea that I thought the opposite. And I didn't suggest Kerry was a great Senator, at all. I simply argued that his military service record is something that should earn him a lot of praise, that people who laud him for that record are right to do so, just as people are right to laud McCain.
The one name you didn't mention is Wellstone. And I would argue that Welllstone--as a Senator--was a far better man, a far greater man, than any of the above (obviously, all of them are better than Thurmond, just to be crystal clear there, since you are having a hard time following me).
Post by nighttimer on Sept 1, 2018 16:50:42 GMT -5
There's really no definitive right OR wrong answer here.
By any standard, John McCain was a man of contradiction and controversy. He never met a war he didn't like. He was all wrong on so many issues. He could be one evil, cranky, son-of-a-bitch. He could be petty as hell (see Sarah Palin, John Weaver, Nicole Wallace or Steve Schmidt among others not invited to his funeral). He knew how to schmooze with the media which fawned on him like lovesick teenagers and annoy the shit out of nearly every Republican and Democrat who crossed swords with him.
John McCain was a real piece of shit work and I trashed his ass in word and print with no restraint and less remorse.
But goddammit, I RESPECT the man. I can't help myself. Just as I respected Bob Dole, Jack Kemp, Sandra Day O' Conner, Anthony Kennedy, and Howard Baker among other. Not my tempo in terms of political philosophy, but in purely objective terms, not bad guys. I had no use for Reagan and I thought Bush41 was okay, but hardly stellar though light years ahead of Bush43 and Tricky Dick Nixon turned out to be a crook after all---but, I'd even take Dead Nixon over Alive Trump. I never thought I'd see the day I'd prefer a crook like Nixon to a punk like Trump, but that day has come.
I can't stand Donald Trump and neither could John McCain, and yes, that's got a lot to do with why he's getting so many wet, sloppy kisses from liberals. McCain on his worst day would be a better president than Trump on his best. You don't have to agree. If you prefer Trump over McCain, that's fine by me. Walk in your own truth, but if you tell me Trump is bringing the country together, making America respect, isn't threatening honored tradition and simply common decency, and doesn't run his administration like a governing body but like a criminal enterprise where loyalty to the boss is the Prime Directive, I'm calling "bullshit" on that.
Just like McCain did.
It really doesn't matter what we think of him. Barring some scandalous revelation, his legacy is already written. What does matter is he left such an indelible impression on American politics, that it is impossible NOT to think of McCain.
I challenged anyone to name someone more deserving of the honors and the accolades, and yes, even the pointed criticism that came McCain's way. With America finally emerged from the Camelot of the Kennedy Era to the Damnation Alley of the Trump Mob, it is not hyperbole to say of John McCain, "Like him or loathe him, we shall not soon his like again."
Go ahead. Prove me wrong.
Nothing I accept about myself can be used against me to diminish me. Audre Lorde
Human beings cannot be willed and molded into non-existence. Angela Davis
I can't believe what you say, because I see what you do. James A. Baldwin