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Post by Amadan on Oct 7, 2018 20:36:28 GMT -5
See, in my world of close-knit Italian extended family, family with different political views do one of two things -- they have respectful but candid discussions about the issues, preferably at a dining table with delicious food and young ones listening and learning like I did as a kid; or if they can't be civil, they avoid politics (like I and my husband have agreed to do with each other which is why I spend time here since I cannot do it at home). Shunning family for politics? I seriously cannot wrap my head around this. Our country, because of its government structure and our Constitution, can withstand Presidents who act like jerks, and it can weather the storm of policy changes which go one way for a time, then after elections, correct to go a different way for a time. And we survive, learn a few hard lessons, try to do better. It's just not worth missing out on the love and good times and support and strength and comfort a close-knit caring family can provide, in a lifetime that is always much too short and sadly short-sighted. Not worth it at all.
While I can understand people for whom some issues are dealbreakers, I am mostly in your camp, in that even severe political disagreements will not cause me to shun anyone, or cut off a friend or family member.
That said, you posted that tweet by Jerry Saltz as an example of how narrow-minded and exclusionary liberals are being? Like we're supposed to be horrified that anyone would suggest cutting off Trump-supporting family members? Okay, assuming he meant that at face value (it's not clear, he seems to be semi-satirically riffing off of Bob Dylan), I disagree with him.
But, where were you when conservatives were losing their shit after Obama won? That link details a few of the more notorious public meltdowns after he won reelection, but I definitely remember quite a few conservatives spewing stuff in 2008 about how if your spouse voted for Obama, you should divorce him/her, cut off all Democrats in your social group, etc. So, were you horrified then? Unable to grasp how anyone could be that angry?
Yeah, right now I am seeing a lot more people on the left convinced that Trump is a threat unlike any we've ever seen before, and reacting accordingly. I saw some reactions on the right to Obama being elected (and reelected) but not in such numbers. Obviously, I think the right-wingers were talking crazy with their delusions that Obama was a Marxist secret Muslim who hated America, while the leftists who think Trump is Literally Hitler are... exaggerating, but not crazy (and maybe not exaggerating that much). And you probably see it the other way around. But I remember the right-wingers acting crazy. Do you?
Your husband no doubt sees Trump as much worse than just "a President who acts like a jerk," and while I will not presume to give you marital advice, I would point out that here on this board, what usually gets you the most heated responses are not when you say you still support Trump (I mean, we all know that, and yet we still like you), but when we're talking about something really egregious he's done and you dive into "oh poo poo I wish he'd be less crude but gee aren't you making too much of this?" Then you post something about North Korea and unemployment being down smiley-face, and maybe a whataboutClinton. And the impression it gives is not just that you disagree with criticisms of Trump (duh) but that they simply do not compute for you. Everyone who dislikes Trump is just being a big silly.
If that is the impression you give even to people close to you who are opposed to Trump...maybe you should consider how disturbing that would be to someone who really, truly believes that Trump is a threat to the Republic. You don't have to agree, but it is perhaps a worldview you should spend more time trying to understand. (See, there I go again suggesting it's productive to understand people you think are dead wrong.)
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Post by prozyan on Oct 7, 2018 21:00:02 GMT -5
I find some biblical logic is needed when dealing with extreme politics within family:
Love the sinner, hate the sin.
I love my older sister dearly. We had many great times and memories shared growing up. But she also took out and ran up over $100k in credit cards in my mom's name, basically stole and spent mom's estate while she was dying of cancer then claimed it was spent on medical costs, and a lot of other shady stuff usually involving finances.
I love my sister dearly....but I damn sure keep her at arm's length.
I kinda feel it works the same when family has extremely divergent political views.
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Post by celawson on Oct 7, 2018 22:25:39 GMT -5
I find some biblical logic is needed when dealing with extreme politics within family: Love the sinner, hate the sin. I love my older sister dearly. We had many great times and memories shared growing up. But she also took out and ran up over $100k in credit cards in my mom's name, basically stole and spent mom's estate while she was dying of cancer then claimed it was spent on medical costs, and a lot of other shady stuff usually involving finances. I love my sister dearly....but I damn sure keep her at arm's length. I kinda feel it works the same when family has extremely divergent political views. Hmmmmm. I might actually shun a sibling who does that. I certainly think that's way worse than having opposing political views. Very much way worse. You're a bigger person than I, prozyan.
As for you, Amadan, I'm not shunning you, but I don't have time to say much except yeah I agree I can minimize Trump, but mostly because I believe in the separation of powers and some good people around him, and so I'm just not scared of him. Yes, I can remind myself of stuff people on the right did back with Obama, but I don't believe there were congresspeople telling folks to harass Obama enablers at restaurants and gas stations and even at home, and I don't think we shot a Democrat while he was playing baseball, and I don't think we tackled and broke several ribs of a congressman in his yard, and I don't think we stormed the Supreme Court and climbed onto statues, and I don't think we rudely interrupted actual SCOTUS nomination hearings, or chased a congressman and his wife out of a restaurant, and whatever you say about Merrick Garland, we didn't try to smear him or ruin his life. Plus, the list you gave is of certain fringe elements of the right, and some of it is downright silly, whereas the stuff I'm mentioning is not. Your number 3 is the worst one, and basically that's what Tweets like the one I posted above is, and let's face it that's become pretty common on Twitter (and elsewhere) now, whereas in 2012 that was enough to get into a news report in a mainstream article. Some of the stuff might be similar, but the general acceptance of this sort of behavior and the numbers of people doing it, and even government officials condoning and encouraging it, makes it seem worse IMO now than it was.
Sorry if my thoughts aren't that clear - I rushed this post so I could get back to my presentations.
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Post by Amadan on Oct 7, 2018 22:44:14 GMT -5
As for you, Amadan, I'm not shunning you, but I don't have time to say much except yeah I agree I can minimize Trump, but mostly because I believe in the separation of powers and some good people around him, and so I'm just not scared of him. Yes, I can remind myself of stuff people on the right did back with Obama, but I don't believe there were congresspeople telling folks to harass Obama enablers at restaurants and gas stations and even at home,
Look, we can play this game all day. I don't know if there is some absolute metric by which we can count scores. My point wasn't to start a debate about who can prove the other side is more unhinged. My point is that a lot of people on the left are feeling seriously threatened by Trump, and while in many cases I am probably inclined to agree with you that they are overstating the threat, and in other cases I don't think there is much point in trying to convince you "No, seriously, this is really bad," retorting to someone who is having serious problems with your Trump support "But whatabout all these times Democrats acted cray-cray?" is probably missing the point.
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Post by robeiae on Oct 8, 2018 7:53:24 GMT -5
I think that tweet from Jerry Saltz--who just picked up a Pulitzer for "criticism," by the way--should be taken at face value. He's hardly qualifying it in the comment trail and it's right in line with many of his other tweets. He's hardcore "they're the enemy and we need to fight them," even if he's a a snotty new age guy living in a bubble world.
And that's a stupid fucking point of view, imo. Yet, I'm seeing something closely akin to it quite a bit on social media, with all the culling of "friends" based solely on politics. Extending it to family--on that basis alone--is beyond stupid, I think (and this goes in both directions, let's remember).
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Post by Deleted on Oct 8, 2018 10:07:17 GMT -5
As for you, Amadan, I'm not shunning you, but I don't have time to say much except yeah I agree I can minimize Trump, but mostly because I believe in the separation of powers and some good people around him, and so I'm just not scared of him. Yes, I can remind myself of stuff people on the right did back with Obama, but I don't believe there were congresspeople telling folks to harass Obama enablers at restaurants and gas stations and even at home, and I don't think we shot a Democrat while he was playing baseball, and I don't think we tackled and broke several ribs of a congressman in his yard, and I don't think we stormed the Supreme Court and climbed onto statues, and I don't think we rudely interrupted actual SCOTUS nomination hearings, or chased a congressman and his wife out of a restaurant, and whatever you say about Merrick Garland, we didn't try to smear him or ruin his life. Plus, the list you gave is of certain fringe elements of the right, and some of it is downright silly, whereas the stuff I'm mentioning is not. Your number 3 is the worst one, and basically that's what Tweets like the one I posted above is, and let's face it that's become pretty common on Twitter (and elsewhere) now, whereas in 2012 that was enough to get into a news report in a mainstream article. Some of the stuff might be similar, but the general acceptance of this sort of behavior and the numbers of people doing it, and even government officials condoning and encouraging it, makes it seem worse IMO now than it was.
Sorry if my thoughts aren't that clear - I rushed this post so I could get back to my presentations.
As for you, Amadan, I'm not shunning you, but I don't have time to say much except yeah I agree I can minimize Trump, but mostly because I believe in the separation of powers and some good people around him, and so I'm just not scared of him. Yes, I can remind myself of stuff people on the right did back with Obama, but I don't believe there were congresspeople telling folks to harass Obama enablers at restaurants and gas stations and even at home, Look, we can play this game all day. I don't know if there is some absolute metric by which we can count scores. My point wasn't to start a debate about who can prove the other side is more unhinged. My point is that a lot of people on the left are feeling seriously threatened by Trump, and while in many cases I am probably inclined to agree with you that they are overstating the threat, and in other cases I don't think there is much point in trying to convince you "No, seriously, this is really bad," retorting to someone who is having serious problems with your Trump support "But whatabout all these times Democrats acted cray-cray?" is probably missing the point. Oh, we could definitely play the "does the left or the right have more extremist whackadoodles" all day, c.e. I could contest (and thoroughly) your assertion that the left is doing more of it now than the right did during Obama. I could bring up a pile of horrible racist incidents protesting Obama, to Charlottesville and Heather Heyer, to the fact that Christine Ford is now in hiding for the foreseeable future because of all the death threats she's getting from "your" side and... Except that IT'S A COMPLETE DERAIL AND GOALPOST MOVING from the point Amadan and I were trying to make to you and that you were allegedly responding to. If nighttimer wants to debunk you with a page of examples, I sure won't stop him, but I'm going to stop there and tell you that you are Completely. Missing. The. Point. we were trying to make. People like me (and I'm betting your husband) are having a hard time with your vote for (and continuing support for) Trump because of TRUMP and HIS actions (and that of many of his alleged "good people", but I'll save that for another post). TRUMP's words. TRUMP's actions. TRUMP's character. TRUMP's history. TRUMP's ignorance. TRUMP's daily lies and insults and assaults on our institutions and values. TRUMP's. The guy you loyally support. And what you did in response was familiar -- you gave a quick take at minimizing Trump himself with a vague wave at "good people" (the ones he keeps firing?) and "separation of powers" (which he's doing his best to undermine and control, and which in any case, aren't proving much of a check?) -- and then you scurried away from that point as fast as you could and went to dredging up all the examples you could of random citizens who held views on the left of the spectrum acting badly (or at least in a way you don't like -- really, you are putting citizens exercising a First Amendment right to protest at the Supreme Court building in the same pile as, say, a nutter shooting someone? Really? WTF). Many of us regard Trump himself as a dangerous threat to the republic. One of them, I suspect, is your husband. Another, for certain, is me. And you don't see how maybe it's a bit infuriating to us when we point to a pile of specific things about the man and his words and actions -- THE MAN IN THE OVAL OFFICE, the one your vote helped put there -- that are indisputably awful (some of them, even you can't dispute are awful) with explanations of why we find them damaging to democracy, the Republic, and global order and worry the hell out of us, and have your response be, "oh, good people and SQUIRREL! Rude hippies with signs!" To note, if I lived in DC or could have made the trip, I would have been one of the rude, rude people with signs protesting at the Supreme Court.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 8, 2018 11:11:00 GMT -5
To add to my previous post --
Attempts to gloss over Trump's bad behavior, actions, etc., are particularly unconsoling to those of us who believe Trump presents a genuine threat to the republic when it feels as though we're in fact paying more attention to what Trump is doing and saying than his defenders are.
E.g., I follow Trump's twitter feed. I follow coverage of his horrible rallies. His speeches, etc. -- I'm on 'em. I get the distinct feeling that many of Trump's supporters do not do this. They follow the policies they like, but avert their eyes from the rest.
That was why I challenged you to read his twitter feed every day, c.e. I'd further challenge you to follow his rallies -- and then follow someone like Daniel Dale, who fact checks what he says at those rallies. It's regularly over-the-top batshit insane. There's plenty of other stuff, too. But if you're going to try to actually defend the man, it behooves you to know what he's actually saying and doing on a daily basis. Waving your hands and saying "oh, I don't support his twitter" isn't really adequate. TENS OF MILLIONS OF PEOPLE DO FOLLOW HIS TWITTER AND BELIEVE EVERY LYING BATSHIT WORD. IT MATTERS.
It really doesn't help when the feeling we get is that we're in fact paying far more attention to your guy than you are.
ETA:
Every damn day, he says and does multiple new things that are simply horrible, untrue, and damaging to our national discourse. And for all your bewailing the meanie mcmeanie press, the fact is, many of the mainstream news sources let a lot of the stuff simply slide, perhaps because there's too much to call out.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 8, 2018 11:29:14 GMT -5
Like I said, for many of us, Trump's threat to the republic goes way beyond mere policy disagreements.
But then when you do get to policy -- well, some of the policy things that scare and upset the fuck out of us aren't even just tax or tariff stuff. It's stuff that we feel America should never do, that violates who we are supposed to be as a country. It's stuff that causes lasting damage way beyond an election cycle.
Things like taking kids away from parents at the border and dumping them in cages, for example. Which yes, was deliberate and not some oversight or accident. That's some permanent damage done to them emotionally, and to their families (not to mention that many are likely to be permanently orphaned).
But hey, even if one doesn't give a crap about the migrant kids, there's stuff that effects all of us and the future, like, e.g., Trump's undoing all kinds of environmental regulations. That's a fucking four alarm fire, c.e.:
The clock is ticking on the environment -- we need to do everything we can, right fucking now. Unfortunately, Trump is going in the opposite direction. And it will be future generations who pay the price for whatever short-term economic benefits you think you'll get from these policies now.
It horrifies and scares me and fills me with despair. I'll bet your husband, with his electric cars, feels the same.
And that's why we can't just smile and pretend it doesn't matter and that we're good with your support for Trump. For us, our house is literally on fire. We're frantically trying to put it out and raise the alarm so that we can salvage what we can. And for us, you are sitting at the kitchen table with your tea, smiling and saying everything is fine, and pooh-poohing our alarm. Which, hey, maybe wouldn't matter so much to us if it only affected you.
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Post by celawson on Oct 8, 2018 11:36:48 GMT -5
So the disconnect here, IMO, is that you and my husband and NT think one guy, Trump, is the danger. I don't see it that way at all. He's just one man with limited power (as set up by our Constitution) who is a blowhard, and who is trying some things differently, but I don't see the actual damage to democracy that you're so worried about. If there are actual threats to the republic, they will be countered by checks and balances. And by his people. As they have been doing. Trump's "threats" as you see them have more to do with his ignorance of how things are done, and his narcissism, than true evil desires or a plan to topple the Republic. Please tell me how this man, after two years in office, is a threat to the Republic. He just isn't. The country is doing quite well, except for the party line vitriol.
To people in my camp, the real danger is with the move to the left with increasing limitations on freedom -- regulations, disruptions to free speech (campus conservative speakers, the mob rule getting people fired for saying things counter to what's politically correct), attacks on religious freedom (Catholic hospitals, the right for a baker to refuse to make a certain type of cake (not refuse a certain type of customer)), now in California there's a law that company boards must include a certain number of women, centralization and increasing power of government such as with universal health care, an overwhelming leftward bias in the mainstream new media, etc. THOSE sorts of things we find counter to what we view as important American values of individual liberty, freedom, limited government, etc. The left's continued move left is a greater affront, IMO, to American values than one man named Trump could ever be.
And let's be honest here -- the Republican push to confirm Kavanaugh was just as much about protecting America from mob rule and guilty until proven innocent, and a circus mentality to desecrate an honored and formerly bipartisan and respectful process, as it was about the make up of the court. Republicans could not let a precedent be set in which an uncorroborated allegation from 36 years ago (and other ridiculous smearing allegations) when the accused was 17 could derail almost 4 decades of an exemplary adult life and work.
I also have to say I think it's interesting that both you and Amadan pointed to ME as dredging up examples, when Amadan did it first - HE gave a list. All I had done was share a Tweet that illustrates the "shunning" that Democrats are calling for, since we were talking about shunning family members. My list later was to counter Amadan's, which I mostly found silly. But yeah, I agree it's not productive to go around and around with examples. I just want to point out I did not do it first and it wasn't to move any goalposts.
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Post by celawson on Oct 8, 2018 11:38:26 GMT -5
Oops, I wrote and posted my post before I saw your next two (or three). I can't read them now - gotta get my talk polished and head to work. Sorry.
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Post by prozyan on Oct 8, 2018 11:49:01 GMT -5
I'll just take this time to point out that Blumenthal is a lying sack of shit.
Not that Trump should be attacking him.
But he is a lying sack of shit.
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Post by prozyan on Oct 8, 2018 11:50:36 GMT -5
And let's be honest here -- the Republican push to confirm Kavanaugh was just as much about protecting America from mob rule and guilty until proven innocent, and a circus mentality to desecrate an honored and formerly bipartisan and respectful process, as it was about the make up of the court. No, it wasn't. The push was all about Republicans showing they do what they want, when they want, and damn anyone who tries to stop them.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 8, 2018 11:52:08 GMT -5
We know that's how you feel, c.e..
What we're trying to show you (because you said you just don't get it) is how some of us feel -- including, perhaps, your husband -- and why it is we can't just smile and shrug and say "okay, potatoes, potahtoes."
And I'm also trying to show you (I think Amadan is, too), why in many cases, your responses seem to dismiss and ignore the concerns of people like me.
We (people like me) think the house is on fire. You think everything is awesome and we're being either silly or dishonest or both. I'm not sure that's a bridgeable gap, to be honest.
ETA:
I, and apparently your husband, generally have found it possible to bridge gaps between our views and others. Your husband married you; I almost married a Bush Sr.-Reaganite conservative (for the record, it wasn't politics that broke us up). It's not that we demand everyone have identical world views to ours. And hey, I found important ground in common with my fiance, too, as I'm sure your husband did with you. But yes, Trump is a whole 'nother thing for me, and for many others.
It's even a whole 'nother thing for many conservatives-- the NeverTrumpers. You can bash 'em as traitors and fools if you like, but the fact is, many of them hold views far more traditionally "conservative" than Trump's, worked for the Republican party for decades, etc. And still they can't bridge that gap. I can easily bridge gaps with the NeverTrump conservatives. Hell, I agree with a lot of what they say, and at least grok the rest, even when I disagree. Trump -- I can't grok.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 8, 2018 12:07:06 GMT -5
I'll just take this time to point out that Blumenthal is a lying sack of shit. Not that Trump should be attacking him. But he is a lying sack of shit. I don't love Blumenthal either, tbh. But yeah, that still doesn't justify what Trump is saying about him. He's POTUS. He shouldn't go spewing attacks, lies, etc., with every breath. It matters. The venomously attacking political opponents and/or making shit up out of whole cloth to get a rally crowd chanting -- it's fucking horrifying.
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Post by prozyan on Oct 8, 2018 12:18:42 GMT -5
But yeah, that still doesn't justify what Trump is saying about him. He's POTUS. He shouldn't go spewing attacks, lies, etc., with every breath. It matters. The venomously attacking political opponents and/or making shit up out of whole cloth to get a rally crowd chanting -- it's fucking horrifying. Absolutely. The office of the President should hold a certain weight and gravity. Such things should be below the office. Trump acts more like he's a junior member of the House (where such rhetoric is common and often ignored) rather than POTUS.
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