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Post by markesq on Oct 22, 2018 8:27:00 GMT -5
Just my opinion here, but Iw ouldn't be even slightly surprised if Trump being president was part of the conversation before the killing.
MBS: "Fuck it, we're gonna kill that Kashoggi bastard, I'm sick of him." Everyone else: "Easy, tiger. He's a resident of the US. A journalist. We can't." MBS: "Why the hell not?" Everyone else: "The backlash would be awful. Our accounts frozen, no more trips to see the Dallas Cowboys...." MBS: "Wrong. Trump is the president. We'll give him some bullshit story he'll be too dumb to question. Plus, he owes us big time." Everyone else: "You are wise, Our Prince." MBS: "And use a bone saw. I want everyone to know that orange oaf is in my pocket."
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Post by Deleted on Oct 22, 2018 9:29:34 GMT -5
Just my opinion here, but Iw ouldn't be even slightly surprised if Trump being president was part of the conversation before the killing. MBS: "Fuck it, we're gonna kill that Kashoggi bastard, I'm sick of him." Everyone else: "Easy, tiger. He's a resident of the US. A journalist. We can't." MBS: "Why the hell not?" Everyone else: "The backlash would be awful. Our accounts frozen, no more trips to see the Dallas Cowboys...." MBS: "Wrong. Trump is the president. We'll give him some bullshit story he'll be too dumb to question. Plus, he owes us big time." Everyone else: "You are wise, Our Prince." MBS: "And use a bone saw. I want everyone to know that orange oaf is in my pocket." I'd be surprised if that weren't the case. And I'm certain that the Trump administration's reaction to this incident will be encouragement to the other dictators and strongmen Trump likes to nuzzle.
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Post by nighttimer on Oct 22, 2018 14:47:05 GMT -5
Khashoggi wasn't killed on U.S. soil. ( So Americans should only care about a man being murdered and dismembered if it happens on U.S. soil?)
He wasn't killed in an official U.S. location. ( So a man walking into a consulate to get copies of his divorce in order to get married again while his fiancee waits outside, is never seen alive again, and a different man walking out wearing his clothes is no big deal?) He was not a U.S. citizen. (When you say, 'not a U.S. citizen' you and Trump are right. But you're both skipping over a few important points. One is Khasohoggi was the father of four children and some of them are U.S. citizens. Two, Khashoggi was working in the U.S. on a "O-1 Visa" and it's no ordinary visa.)
( By the way, none of the 276 schoolgirls who were kidnapped by Boko Haram in 2014 and were held captive for over three years, were U.S. citizens either, but that didn't stop First Lady Michelle Obama for urging the world not to forget them through the #BringBackOurGirls social media campaign. Was that a big-ass waste of time since none of those Nigerian kids were Americans?) He was not killed while performing U.S. work. ( So that means its okay for Saudi Arabia to butcher him like a cow?) Everyone involved in this has an ulterior motive. EVERYONE. ( Everyone? What's Trump ulterior motive? What was Khashoggi's? Walk into a death trap, get himself beaten, tortured, murdered and cut into pieces? What's yours? ) The story has changed frequently and in major ways. ( But not the major points. A man walks into a consulate alive and is never seen again and an ally of the U.S. has its bloody fingerprints all over his death). Even Pompeo has not seen or heard any evidence about this, though Turkey swears they have evidence. Why not? He went there. (Mike Pompeo has zero credibility here. He pissed away whatever little credibility he had left when it became obvious Pompeo was only concerned how he can clean up the mess created by the Saudis and not find out what happened to the man the kingdomw sicced a 15-man "hit" squad on.)
There's a scope of actions on the world stage that the response to this could change, that could affect well more than one life. ( Such as? That all sounds very cryptic, but you're a couple pounds light on any details. This wait-and-see crap doesn't work in a murder case and that's what we have here. Somebody Got Murdered.) Yet the outrage and the coverage and the condemning of Trump and his administration about not going in with guns blazing is on a pretty big level. What are the reasons for this level of outrage? ( I repeat: BONE. SAW.)
1)he was a journalist, so we are seeing more press about this than if he had another occupation. 2)it's right before midterms, so it can be used to hit Trump hard 3)genuine moral dismay (taken in context of everything the Saudis have done over the years) I'll let you all decide what order of importance to put those reasons in. ( I find your incessant Trump cheerleading to be rather tiresome because if he had the moral fortitude to do his damn job, Trump would have immediately condemned the Saudis for their targeting of a critic and he would have demonstrated leadership on a world stage that looks to the United States to be the leading defender of peaceful dissent and criticism of powerful interests. Trump didn't do that and for what reason? MONEY. If he (as really tough and unafraid of political correctness he'd just say, "Look, it's terrible what happened to Khashoggi. Simply terrible and its a disgrace. But if you think I'm gonna blow off a $100 billion in arms sales to the Saudis, you're outta your mind!" ) ( You know why we're seeing more press about Khashoggi's assassination than we might if he wasn't a journalist, celawson? Because it's a very bad thing when governments can hunt down and kill their critics. Trump's buddy Putin does it and his other buddy, Kim Jong Un does it and now the kingdom has done it. Jamal Khashoggi's occupation was journalism, but even if he were a doctor, a lawyer, a scientist or a fucking short order cook, it would still be an atrocity because NOBODY is safe when governments can hunt down and kill their critics.) ( Oh, so you think the reason we're seeing more press about this is because Khashoggi was a journalist and it's right before the midterms and it can be used to hit Trump hard, huh? There are already plenty of reasons to hit Trump hard, harder and repeatedly, but I've already figured out what your reasons are to trivialize, diminish, denigrate and politicize the murder of Jamal Khashoggi, celawson).
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Post by celawson on Oct 22, 2018 15:24:44 GMT -5
Let's clarify what I'm saying here, rather than what you all want to think I'm saying. I'm NOT saying I don't care that this man was murdered. I'm NOT saying Trump shouldn't care. Of course we all should care. And of course we all should be outraged. And of course the Saudis and esp MBS need to have repercussions. What I'm criticizing is the outrage at Trump for not punishing the Saudi's yet. He hasn't even made a decision about what his administration is going to do about this, and he doesn't yet have all the information he needs to make that decision. But he's working on it. I'm saying get the information. Even the Washington Post wants the U.S. to gather more information. Yup, there is still information to be gathered: (That last sentence is what I mean about everyone having ulterior motives) That was from Fred Hiatt, editor of the WaPo opinion section. From an interview published on Oct 19. Information was trickling in and still is trickling in. Stories have changed multiple times. Get the information. www.washingtonian.com/2018/10/19/fred-hiatt-washington-post-jamal-khashoggi/And then make a careful decision about what to do to MBS, keeping in mind the larger goal of our fight against Islamist terrorism and the state of the Middle East. Trump will ensure there are repercussions. He's not going to give MBS a pass on this, regardless of how feckless or stupid or corrupt you all think Trump is. There will be consequences. And MBS deserves harsh consequences. And he will get them. And acting like Trump is aiding and abetting this sort of evil is ridiculous and, IMO, used for the purpose of trying to damage Trump before midterms. Or maybe it's just become an automatic response to think the worst of everything Trump does or does not do, before it's even clear what he's done or doing. Whatever. We will see in a day or two what he and his admin does about this. www.wsj.com/articles/trump-not-satisfied-with-saudi-arabias-explanation-for-khashoggi-death-1540237930
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Post by Amadan on Oct 22, 2018 15:27:11 GMT -5
And then make a careful decision about what to do to MBS, keeping in mind the larger goal of our fight against Islamist terrorism and the state of the Middle East. Trump will ensure there are repercussions. He's not going to give MBS a pass on this, regardless of how feckless or stupid or corrupt you all think Trump is. There will be consequences. And MBS deserves harsh consequences. And he will get them. You seem very confident of this. Would you care to make a wager?
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Post by markesq on Oct 22, 2018 16:29:33 GMT -5
And then make a careful decision about what to do to MBS, keeping in mind the larger goal of our fight against Islamist terrorism and the state of the Middle East. Trump will ensure there are repercussions. He's not going to give MBS a pass on this, regardless of how feckless or stupid or corrupt you all think Trump is. There will be consequences. And MBS deserves harsh consequences. And he will get them. You seem very confident of this. Would you care to make a wager?
Right. My point in starting this thread wasn't to say what Trump should have done already, it was essentially a prediction that no matter how guilty MBS turns out to be, Trump will do next to nothing.
I will also pose the question, to you c.e. since you raised it, at what point do we stop hiding behind "the larger goal of our fight against Islamist terrorism and the state of the Middle East"? Because it seems to me that if we can look past the brutal, premeditated, cold-blooded murder of a US resident journalist in a NATO country by an ally, then we may have lost sight of what we're fighting for.
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Post by nighttimer on Oct 22, 2018 17:41:22 GMT -5
This incident horrified me as well. How could it not? But the situation is so extremely complicated (in who Khashoggi was, and with what happened and how and why,) with so many layers, and the handling of it could have such significant ramifications on the world stage, that we should be more cautious that simply to take it at face value of what we're seeing in the MSM right now. Khashoggi wasn't killed on U.S. soil. He wasn't killed in an official U.S. location. He was not a U.S. citizen. He was not killed while performing U.S. work. Everyone involved in this has an ulterior motive. EVERYONE. 1)he was a journalist, so we are seeing more press about this than if he had another occupation. Let's clarify what I'm saying here, rather than what you all want to think I'm saying. Pass. There's nothing wrong with my reading comprehension. I was quite clear on what you said the first time you said it and then you said it again as if it took two times to get to the heart of the matter.
How? By waiting for the Saudis to come up with a better bullshit story than the one they barfed up over the weekend? By jetting around the country on the taxpayers dime to Texas to rescue Lyin' Ted Cruz's worthless ass against a Democrat in Texas? IN TEXAS???
Trump ain't workin' on shit except trying to save his Congressional majorities and blowing smoke hoping the news media and the vast majority of the American public who aren't on Team Trump will lose interest and wander back to their Kim Kartrashian and Krazy Kanye sideshow distractions.
Trump will ensure there are repercussions? Oh, like the repercussions Trump leveled against his Lord & Savior Vladimir Putin over the Russians meddling in the 2016 and now the 2018 elections? There have been NO repercussions, NO consequences and NO severe punishment toward any autocratic regime outside of China because he wants the U.S. to become an autocratic regime too.
For me it IS an automatic response to the think the worst of everything Trump does or does not do. Because your president is a racist and I will never ever cut a feckless, stupid and corrupt racist any slack. I'll give Trump as much slack as he would give me and that's no slack at all.
Your idealized Trump stands for truth, justice and the American way. The real Trump stands for lies, injustice and what the Russians tell him. If Trump were smart, he'd announce he's suspending the arms deal with the Saudis until the investigations have been completed, ask the FBI to investigate the murder, and take the issue off the table until after the elections. The Democrats would howl, but they would have nowhere to go and the story would dry up. Since Trump isn't smart, he won't do that because it might make him look weak as if he caved in to pressure.
It's impossible to miss what you're most concerned about and it's not what happened to Jamal Khashoggi.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 23, 2018 9:24:07 GMT -5
A very endearing (and short) video clip of Khashoggi and a cat.
Our "ally" tortured this guy and dismembered him with a bonesaw because he was a journalist who said things they didn't like.
But hey, he wasn't a U.S. citizen. And journalists deserve what they get, amirite?
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Post by celawson on Oct 23, 2018 11:43:09 GMT -5
Yeah, that's exactly what I said, Cassandra. *rolls eyes* nighttimer said: Wrong. Take a look at this detailed Newsweek article from mid-September on how tough this administration is being on Russia. And it's not even Townhall or Breitbart, believe it or not. Yes, Trump initially thought he could schmooze Putin. But he's new at this politics game, and his narcissism gets in the way of good judgement sometimes. But the important thing is he's starting to listen to those who know, and he did sign an executive order for sanctions. Donald Trump, U.S. Have Declared Economic War on Russia With Its Toughest Sanctions Yetwww.newsweek.com/2018/09/28/trump-us-economic-war-russia-tough-sanctions-1122653.htmlSo yes, he is doing something about Russia. And he will do something about the Saudis. He has Gina Haspel CIA director in Turkey right now, and he's said to be frustrated with the Saudis according to a new CNN story - www.cnn.com/2018/10/23/politics/trump-irritated-khashoggi-death/index.html
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Post by Amadan on Oct 23, 2018 11:51:56 GMT -5
Yeah, that's exactly what I said, Cassandra. *rolls eyes* It is very close to what you said. So, what are you wagering that Trump will do?
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Post by celawson on Oct 23, 2018 12:28:21 GMT -5
It's absolutely not close to what I said. And you all know it. It's a technique you and Cassandra use in arguments, and it's a technique I don't respect at all.
I'm wagering Trump will do something that hurts the Saudis but doesn't affect our global strategy too much (which includes containment of Iran in the ME). What that is, I really don't know, but it needs to include clear repudiation of the Saudi excuses, condemnation of the act, and insistence on the correct people to take responsibility. And maybe it will include some retraction of funding for the war in Yemen? I don't know, I leave that up to the experts.
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Post by Amadan on Oct 23, 2018 12:51:02 GMT -5
It's absolutely not close to what I said. And you all know it. It's a technique you and Cassandra use in arguments, and it's a technique I don't respect at all. That's good, because I don't respect your arguments or your honesty. You did indeed seek to diminish the significance and severity of the murder of Jamal Kashoggi by pointing out that he was a foreigner, and suggested that a big deal was being made of it mostly because he was a journalist and that it made Trump look bad. To the degree that Cassandra was exaggerating your words, it was to point out how morally abominable it was for you to offer such apologia in your blind partisan defense of Trump. That sounds very much like "No matter what he does, even if it's a stern finger-wagging, I will claim he took SEVERE, DECISIVE ACTION." Props on leaving enough wiggle room to fly a Saudi arms shipment through.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 23, 2018 13:03:44 GMT -5
Khashoggi wasn't killed on U.S. soil. He wasn't killed in an official U.S. location. He was not a U.S. citizen. He was not killed while performing U.S. work. Everyone involved in this has an ulterior motive. EVERYONE. The story has changed frequently and in major ways. Even Pompeo has not seen or heard any evidence about this, though Turkey swears they have evidence. Why not? He went there. There's a scope of actions on the world stage that the response to this could change, that could affect well more than one life. Yet the outrage and the coverage and the condemning of Trump and his administration about not going in with guns blazing is on a pretty big level. What are the reasons for this level of outrage? 1)he was a journalist, so we are seeing more press about this than if he had another occupation. 2)it's right before midterms, so it can be used to hit Trump hard 3)genuine moral dismay (taken in context of everything the Saudis have done over the years) I'll let you all decide what order of importance to put those reasons in. This is what you said, c.e. What exactly was the point of it if it isn't "well, he wasn't an American citizen, so people are making way too big a deal, and that's for political reasons and fake MSM madness"? Amadan, nighttimer, and I, who don't hesitate to rip one another's heads off on a routine basis, all read it the same way. And seriously, how else could one possibly read it? The lack of respect is returned, along with the eyeroll.
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Post by celawson on Oct 23, 2018 13:21:20 GMT -5
Those were reasons why we shouldn't go in with guns blazing, not why the murder wasn't morally reprehensible. Please. And you both knew that when you read my list. You're too intelligent not to understand what I was saying. (But of course Trump hatred can blind people to the obvious, so I should take that into consideration.)
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Post by Deleted on Oct 23, 2018 13:23:49 GMT -5
Seriously -- WHAT THE FUCK WAS THAT??
My moral dismay is not just directed at Trump and the Saudis, I fear.
And what the fuck is this?
That sweet guy with the cat on his lap, the one about to be married, a U.S. resident working for a U.S. newspaper with American kids, was tortured in the Saudi consulate, had his fingers sawed off while still alive, was dismembered, and the Saudis put out a risible story about it. Oh, and they won't let his son leave the country to mourn with his siblings. Mother fuckers.
But, ya know, arms deals. It's not like he was a citizen, so the only reason one could possibly be upset about it is Trump Derangement Syndrome and media bias.
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