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Post by celawson on Nov 20, 2018 15:11:26 GMT -5
I’m not going to pivot. I think he took the easy way out so he can still be buddies with MBS and make Congress the bad guys. I will admit defeat. That’s too bad. However, if you all crow too much about this, I will change my policy of not crowing when you all are wrong, which I started way back when Trump won the election. And continued through Merrick Garland and the Kavanaugh hearings and more. And this IS complicated. The Middle East is always complicated. It takes more than a good negotiator; it takes someone who understands way more than the art of the deal.
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Post by Amadan on Nov 20, 2018 15:32:23 GMT -5
I don't want to crow. I just want you to stop being so blindly defensive of Trump. It's not about "winning." I don't hate Trump for the sake of hating Trump, and I've taken plenty of shit for saying I don't think he's a fascist or that sometimes he actually hasn't done the worst things he's accused of (e.g., being personally responsible for racial violence). You know I also have never been a blindly partisan defender of Democrats. I don't think anyone here is. But you seem to have wrapped up your entire identity in being the iconoclastic Republican who will defend Trump no matter what. Rob does that sometimes, just to kick the libs a bit, but every time Trump does something egregiously stupid and/or horrific, like clockwork we can predict that you will post something like "Oh, that's the liberal media blowing things out of proportion, he's just being uncouth, how unfortunate, but he'll say something more sensible eventually LOL."
I'm making fun, but it's because I am sure on some level you know you're ignoring the cognitive dissonance. And really, admitting that Trump has screwed the pooch does not mean you have to surrender and admit the Liberals Are Right About Everything.
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Post by markesq on Nov 20, 2018 15:44:33 GMT -5
No, no, it's very complicated. Trump is acknowledging that. ("Maybe he did, and maybe he didn't.") Oh, yeah, good point. Probably better not to rush to judgment, the CIA can't know better than The President Himself, for sure.
And, I mean, what's one hacked-to-pieces US resident compared to selling lots of bombs that can kill thousands of non-US residents?
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Post by markesq on Nov 20, 2018 15:49:51 GMT -5
I’m not going to pivot. I think he took the easy way out so he can still be buddies with MBS and make Congress the bad guys. I will admit defeat. That’s too bad. However, if you all crow too much about this, I will change my policy of not crowing when you all are wrong, which I started way back when Trump won the election. And continued through Merrick Garland and the Kavanaugh hearings and more. And this IS complicated. The Middle East is always complicated. It takes more than a good negotiator; it takes someone who understands way more than the art of the deal. And to be serious for a moment, I agree that this isn't about whether I was right or you were.
This was a journalist, a US resident, hacked to pieces. Horrifically murdered in cold blood on the orders of MBS. If America stands for anything, surely it's standing up against that, no? Maybe you're OK with a shrug of the shoulders, an "It's complicated," and enjoying the $$ we make from selling them arms. For me, this country means more than taking every chance to rake in cash. This is absolutely disgusting.
Also, it's disingenuous to absolve Trump of serious responsibility by saying he's too naive or inexperienced, when he himself made the decision to ignore and undermine information provided by his own security service. That's not ignorance, that's wilful blindness. And I'm not even getting into his business ties (past, present and future) with the Saudis. That man is a despicable, amoral, moron. Even his "statement" reads like a 7th grader wrote it.
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Post by mikey on Nov 20, 2018 16:07:58 GMT -5
I think some of you are being a bit unfair to Trump on this issue. No pres in the last 60 years or so has held SA accountable for anything. Up to and including flying airplanes into occupied buildings killing thousands (9/11). Trump and or war hawks are still trying to blame Iran for this. I still think at some point the US will lob some missiles at Iran in retaliation for this Saudi sanctioned murder.
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Post by markesq on Nov 20, 2018 16:41:11 GMT -5
I think some of you are being a bit unfair to Trump on this issue. No pres in the last 60 years or so has held SA accountable for anything. Up to and including flying airplanes into occupied buildings killing thousands (9/11). Trump and or war hawks are still trying to blame Iran for this. I still think at some point the US will lob some missiles at Iran in retaliation for this Saudi sanctioned murder. I don't see this as the same thing. First, here, pretty much everyone except Trump agrees that MBS was directly involved in this murder. Second, Trump said he'd be VERY tough with whoever was responsible (presumably thinking no one would finger MBS). So, not only has he failed to do what he said (shocker), he's (again) undermined our security services.
Also, even if they were the same thing, are we at the point where it's OK to shrug off inhumane acts by saying, "Well, my predecessors did it"? I sure hope not.
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Post by mikey on Nov 20, 2018 17:12:33 GMT -5
I think some of you are being a bit unfair to Trump on this issue. No pres in the last 60 years or so has held SA accountable for anything. Up to and including flying airplanes into occupied buildings killing thousands (9/11). Trump and or war hawks are still trying to blame Iran for this. I still think at some point the US will lob some missiles at Iran in retaliation for this Saudi sanctioned murder. I don't see this as the same thing. First, here, pretty much everyone except Trump agrees that MBS was directly involved in this murder. Second, Trump said he'd be VERY tough with whoever was responsible (presumably thinking no one would finger MBS). So, not only has he failed to do what he said (shocker), he's (again) undermined our security services.
Also, even if they were the same thing, are we at the point where it's OK to shrug off inhumane acts by saying, "Well, my predecessors did it"? I sure hope not.
In a way you're right Mark.back during the 9/11 fiasco everybody including GW bush knew the Saudis were involved, yet you know what happened to the Saudis(nada). This is a situation where the new boss is the same as the old boss. One of the things I find disturbing about this mess is the fact that nobody is talking about ongoing US policy with regard to international relationships.
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Post by nighttimer on Nov 20, 2018 17:57:56 GMT -5
Anyone with an I.Q. higher than a glass of cold water in a dirty glass knew Trump was never ever gonna go against the House of Saud. If you didn't you're a damn fool. Though Trump has no direct financial interests in Saudi Arabia, he has made millions from the Saudis all and the same. And really, what's the life of one murdered journalist butchered and slaughtered like a steer in comparison to $450 billion in arms sales and other goodies to line the pockets of Corporate America? Kidnapping? Torture? Bone saws? No body to bury? Pshaw. Who gives a shit? It's not as though Jamal Khashoggi was an American citizen. Fuck' em. Plenty more when he came from. This is not normal. Nobody can tell me it is.
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Post by celawson on Nov 21, 2018 15:20:30 GMT -5
I don't want to crow. I just want you to stop being so blindly defensive of Trump. It's not about "winning." I don't hate Trump for the sake of hating Trump, and I've taken plenty of shit for saying I don't think he's a fascist or that sometimes he actually hasn't done the worst things he's accused of (e.g., being personally responsible for racial violence). You know I also have never been a blindly partisan defender of Democrats. I don't think anyone here is. But you seem to have wrapped up your entire identity in being the iconoclastic Republican who will defend Trump no matter what. Rob does that sometimes, just to kick the libs a bit, but every time Trump does something egregiously stupid and/or horrific, like clockwork we can predict that you will post something like "Oh, that's the liberal media blowing things out of proportion, he's just being uncouth, how unfortunate, but he'll say something more sensible eventually LOL." I'm making fun, but it's because I am sure on some level you know you're ignoring the cognitive dissonance. And really, admitting that Trump has screwed the pooch does not mean you have to surrender and admit the Liberals Are Right About Everything. I couldn't answer this yesterday, because I was on my phone and weirdly, when I quoted it, there was no room to type underneath it. Also, has anyone noticed that if you accidentally get your cursor INSIDE the quote, you can't get it out again? Weird. Anyway, I see the point you're trying to make, but I really don't think I defend Trump's "egregiously stupid and/or horrific" stuff unless it's been mischaracterized. And it often is. We've seen this again and again. Remember the word censorship stuff at the CDC? LOL. Or how he sent the troops to the border to shoot the caravan immigrants or it's just a stunt? Right. Or that he was siding with white supremacists in Charlottesville when he was actually referring to people on both sides of the Confederate statue issue? Or that he removed the MLK bust from the oval office? Or how he didn't shake that disabled child's hand when unedited video clearly showed he did? Or that he's in Putin's pocket, when his administration has imposed tougher sanctions on Russia than in recent history? Or that his temporary ban on immigration from certain countries with high threat and poor vetting was a "Muslim ban"? Or that he is the cause of anti-Semitism when he's the most pro-Israel POTUS maybe ever? I mean, I could go on and on, but I don't have time. Trump and the media have an ongoing war, and it's clear there's media bias against him, so I'm not plucking that out of thin air, really I'm not. I do think Trump hatred is so immense that people can't view him objectively, and yes I might be on the defensive a lot of the time but show me where I've defended something that is truly stupid and egregious and not inflated by the media? I admit I do have an investment in Trump doing well, because I voted for him and the experiment, and I truly wanted someone with a different approach to "fix" a lot of stuff that had happened over the past 8 years. And yes, it's difficult when he doesn't work out the way I had hoped. But he's also done a ton of stuff I'm happy with, and I don't think he gets enough credit for those things either. (VA reform, increasing the military budget, obliterating ISIS, addressing bias at the UN, the Iran deal, pulling out of the Paris Climate Accord, making the UN pull their fair share - the list does go on and I think Trump had the guts to do things other Repubs wouldn't have.) It's just too bad his style and approach are not more presidential.
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Post by gaild on Nov 22, 2018 5:33:15 GMT -5
Anyone with an I.Q. higher than a glass of cold water in a dirty glass knew Trump was never ever gonna go against the House of Saud. If you didn't you're a damn fool. Though Trump has no direct financial interests in Saudi Arabia, he has made millions from the Saudis all and the same. And really, what's the life of one murdered journalist butchered and slaughtered like a steer in comparison to $450 billion in arms sales and other goodies to line the pockets of Corporate America? Kidnapping? Torture? Bone saws? No body to bury? Pshaw. Who gives a shit? It's not as though Jamal Khashoggi was an American citizen. Fuck' em. Plenty more when he came from. This is not normal. Nobody can tell me it is. No, it's not okay. It's a horrible, barbaric act. No argument there. But what country does not have a history of state-approved barbaric acts? Not a lot, I'm guessing. This doesn't make what happened to Jamal Khashoggi any less terrible. However, if the U.S. (or any other country for that matter) had to stop doing business with every country that has committed such a crime, who would be left? The Seychelles?
I don't think the answer is punitive action that hurts your own people. What is the answer? I don't know. Unless there is a way of putting special clauses in trade deals that say 'payment of at least 50% up front and, if you commit egregious crimes against our people, the deal is automatically cancelled with no refund.' But I don't think that would comply with WTO rules, somehow.
It's a slippery slope. Where do you draw the line? What crimes are bad enough to stop trade, and what are 'okay'?
I think the only way to address the murder of Khashoggi is at the a diplomatic level. And the world expressing outrage is not a bad thing either.
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Post by mikey on Nov 22, 2018 9:31:01 GMT -5
They could just disappear MbS for an eye for an eye and call it a day?
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Post by nighttimer on Nov 22, 2018 14:34:32 GMT -5
I’m not going to pivot. I think he took the easy way out so he can still be buddies with MBS and make Congress the bad guys. I will admit defeat. That’s too bad. However, if you all crow too much about this, I will change my policy of not crowing when you all are wrong, which I started way back when Trump won the election. And continued through Merrick Garland and the Kavanaugh hearings and more. And this IS complicated. The Middle East is always complicated. It takes more than a good negotiator; it takes someone who understands way more than the art of the deal. If you were happy when a good and decent man like Merrick Garland was denied even so much as a hearing, I feel sorry for you. I know what's wrong with Mitch McConnell and Chuck Grassley, but if you're fine with the Republicans stonewalling President Obama, please don't whine when there is a Democratic majority in the Senate and they stonewall a Republican president's nominee.
Your president has no regard for human rights. None. He loves tyrants and sadistic psychopaths like Vladimir Putin, Rodrigo Duterte and Kim Jong-un. Your president fires anyone who isn't blindly loyal to him. Your president coddles and emboldens White supremacists. Your president disrespects Gold Star families, the wives of a fallen soldier, and now a decorated hero who brought down the madman who perpetrated the worst act of terrorism in this nation's history.
The Middle East IS complicated and it only becomes more complicated and dangerous when countries know they can send assassins to take out dissident citizens in another country and the U.S. will do NOTHING.
Your president is not a bad president. Your president is evil and I despise him.
I think some of you are being a bit unfair to Trump on this issue. Unfair? What happened to Jamal Khashoggi went far beyond "unfair." It was MURDER.
And Trump is covering up the crime along with the House of Saud. They all have Khashoggi's blood on their filthy hands.
Anyone with an I.Q. higher than a glass of cold water in a dirty glass knew Trump was never ever gonna go against the House of Saud. If you didn't you're a damn fool. Though Trump has no direct financial interests in Saudi Arabia, he has made millions from the Saudis all and the same. And really, what's the life of one murdered journalist butchered and slaughtered like a steer in comparison to $450 billion in arms sales and other goodies to line the pockets of Corporate America? Kidnapping? Torture? Bone saws? No body to bury? Pshaw. Who gives a shit? It's not as though Jamal Khashoggi was an American citizen. Fuck' em. Plenty more when he came from. This is not normal. Nobody can tell me it is. No, it's not okay. It's a horrible, barbaric act. No argument there. But what country does not have a history of state-approved barbaric acts? Not a lot, I'm guessing. This doesn't make what happened to Jamal Khashoggi any less terrible. However, if the U.S. (or any other country for that matter) had to stop doing business with every country that has committed such a crime, who would be left? The Seychelles?
I don't think the answer is punitive action that hurts your own people. What is the answer? I don't know. Unless there is a way of putting special clauses in trade deals that say 'payment of at least 50% up front and, if you commit egregious crimes against our people, the deal is automatically cancelled with no refund.' But I don't think that would comply with WTO rules, somehow.
It's a slippery slope. Where do you draw the line? What crimes are bad enough to stop trade, and what are 'okay'?
I think the only way to address the murder of Khashoggi is at the a diplomatic level. And the world expressing outrage is not a bad thing either. No one ever thought for a second that Trump was going to sever the ties between the U.S. and Saudi Arabia. It's a marriage of convenience. An unholy one and both sides have done their share of dirt to the other. However, that does not mean nothing could be done to punish the Saudis for their audacity. They wanted a critic of Saudi autocracy removed and a message sent to others whom have criticized Crown Prince Mohammed bin Salman.
Fuck with us and you will end up like Khashoggi. The Mafia would approve.
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Post by gaild on Nov 23, 2018 5:08:45 GMT -5
Personally, I don't think severing ties with the Saudis would have been the right thing to do. But do think that a lot can be done at a diplomatic level. Also, the intense negative attention that this incident has received has thrown a light on who and what MBS really is, as an individual. He has lost, I think, the trust of many nations, which is going to make his future dealings a lot harder than he would have liked.
That aside, I'm going to throw a new thought into the mix. Individual responsibility. And I'm NOT victim-blaming here.
Jamal Khashoggi knew full well that the Saudis had it in for him. He even called the embassy ahead of his visit for assurances about his safety. He was given those assurances and he chose to trust them. Each of us has to bear some responsibility for the choices we make. This doesn't mean that he is to blame for what happened or that it is his fault. But, given what he knew, it was a stupid decision that cost him his life. He could have gone to the embassy in NYC or Washington DC, which would have been a lot safer. Should countries go to (economic) war over one individual's poor choice? I don't think so.
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Post by markesq on Nov 23, 2018 10:46:54 GMT -5
Sorry, but that's the very definition of victim blaming.
ETA:
Do you REALLY think Kashoggi had any inkling he would be murdered the minute he stepped inside the embassy? That his body would be cut up and dissolved in acid? Do you really think those options crossed his mind? Because I sure don't.
And you say that he sought assurances for his safety like that was a bad thing.
On "personal responsibility." Why is it that when people use that phrase, they apply it to one person but not another? Why does it apply to Kashoggi and not MBS? What about his decision to have a journalist murdered?
I'm sorry, Gail, this line of reasoning makes me mad because, despite what you say, it IS victim blaming, pure and simple.
And, look, no one has said to sever ties with Saudi Arabia. But how about holding MBS personally accountable, seeing him come to justice? But no, no so much as a peep from our spineless lump of a president. Because, hey, you know, money.
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Post by Amadan on Nov 23, 2018 12:24:36 GMT -5
Yeah, if there is such a thing as victim blaming, that's it. Anyone can use 20/20 hindsight and say "Maybe he shouldn't have done that," but no one should expect that he's going to be murdered when he walks into his own country/s embassy, and you're basically saying we should shrug and say "Well, he should have expected that his country was like that."
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