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Post by Amadan on Oct 24, 2018 8:12:06 GMT -5
The Middle East scare-baiting is indeed typical red meat for Trump's base.
That said - it's worth keeping in mind that terrorists, generally from the Middle East, who would not be able to enter the US through normal means, do use the southern border as a means of entry. And with thousands of people in this "caravan," it would actually surprise me if some of the usual suspects didn't try to slip a man or two in with them.
So before poo-pooing it and saying "Don't be ridiculous, of course there aren't any scary Middle Eastern people among all those poor hungry 'refugees'" and then a legit scary Middle Eastern person does turn up among them... that would play really well to base.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 24, 2018 8:20:01 GMT -5
And the best plan to sneak in that way, if you were a Middle East terrorist, would not be to fly quietly to Mexico or Canada and sneak in, but rather go to Honduras, become part of a major media circus, and walk a few thousand miles with a caravan the whole world is watching. Obviously.
There may also be extraterrestrials in that caravan. It's possible. Or killer bees. Or Yeti. Or penguins.
As Trump himself has conveniently acknowledged, HE IN FACT HAS NO FUCKING IDEA. It's scare closet shit, and that's all it is. (Indeed, pretty much everything Trump says and does with regard to immigration is scare closet shit, but this in particular.)
I think it's stupid, as well as racist and xenophobic, and I must mock it.
It's also really fucking stupid to have a president whose foreign policy encourages poverty, unrest, and resentment towards America, and who kisses up to the country from whence terrorists have actually come, as well as assorted other dictators and madmen.
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Post by Amadan on Oct 24, 2018 8:26:16 GMT -5
And the best plan to sneak in that way, if you were a Middle East terrorist, would not be to fly quietly to Mexico of Canada and sneak in, but rather go to Honduras, become part of a major media circus, and walk a few thousand miles. Obviouly. There may also be extraterrestrials in that caravan. It's possible. Or killer bees. Or Yeti or penguins. As Trump himself has conveniently acknowledged, HE HAS NO FUCKING IDEA. It's scare closet shit, and that's all it is. Oh, I doubt they'd walk all the way. They'd just wait until the mob is actually on the border, when it will be a real circus.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 24, 2018 8:55:47 GMT -5
Also, despite all the wigged-out paranoia about Eeeevil Middle Eastern terrorists sneaking into the country in bizarre ways, seems to me that ALL of the terror inflicted on America has been done by terrorists who were here perfectly legally, many home-grown (and many not Middle Eastern, but set that aside for now).
And, of course, none of them were from the countries on Trump's Muslim ban.
For all the paranoia and hype and xenophobic nonsense Trumpand tge alt-right spouts, the havoc and death thus far inflicted by Middle Eastern terrorists sneaking in illegally has been, by my estimate, nil.
Scare. Closet. Shit.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 27, 2018 7:27:50 GMT -5
Oh, my, Mexico is voluntarily granting asylum to evil criminals and Middle Eastern terrorists!
Of course, Mexico so much wealthier than we are, so I guess they can afford to grant asylum. I mean, they didn't just give a trillion-plus in tax cuts to billionaires.
Now if you'll excuse me, I'm heading downtown to remove the statue of liberty and ship it to Mexico.
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Post by Don on Oct 27, 2018 7:58:32 GMT -5
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Post by Amadan on Oct 27, 2018 8:41:26 GMT -5
Oh, my, Mexico is voluntarily granting asylum to evil criminals and Middle Eastern terrorists! Of course, Mexico so much wealthier than we are, so I guess they can afford to grant asylum. I mean, they didn't just give a trillion-plus in tax cuts to billionaires. Now if you'll excuse me, I'm heading downtown to remove the statue of liberty and ship it to Mexico.
That would be totally appropriate if Mexico were actually welcoming in those poor huddled masses instead of saying "Sure, we'll let you pass on through to the US, just don't plan on staying here."
Compared most of the Central America, Mexico is a rich country.
This is one issue where even I think your hatred of Trump is blinding you to what's actually going on. Yes, Trump is using awful rhetoric to score political points against the Dems, and his base is being ugly and racist. But these people are not refugees! They are migrants coming from places that suck who would like to live in a place that doesn't suck. That place could be Mexico, but the US sucks even less than Mexico, so they don't want to move to Mexico, they want to move to the US.
If "refugee" status is granted to anyone coming from a place that has a terrible economy and violent gangs who threaten people, we might as well say that half the world qualifies to move to the US.
As per usual, I think Trump is going about this in the worst possible way, but I do not disagree with his basic position that we have no obligation to let these people in, and that tear-jerking stories about suffering back in their hometown should not motivate us to just trash our immigration laws.
That said, most people believe the "caravan" is political theater all around, and that in a month or two there will only be a handful of stragglers still arriving at the border.
But they are giving a gift to the anti-immigrationists, because no sensible person should be saying "Oh, those poor people, how can we deny them the American Dream?" But apparently there are a lot of people lacking sense.
The sane and responsible thing for Trump to do would just be to say "When and if they arrive at the border, they will be processed like any other would-be entrant, and anyone who claims refugee status will have the criteria for political refugees strictly applied. Oh, here are those critera. (Hint: You ain't gonna qualify.)"
Of course I know I used "Trump" and "sane and responsible" in the same sentence, so what's actually going to happen will be a shitshow.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 27, 2018 10:12:42 GMT -5
Oh, my, Mexico is voluntarily granting asylum to evil criminals and Middle Eastern terrorists! Of course, Mexico so much wealthier than we are, so I guess they can afford to grant asylum. I mean, they didn't just give a trillion-plus in tax cuts to billionaires. Now if you'll excuse me, I'm heading downtown to remove the statue of liberty and ship it to Mexico. That would be totally appropriate if Mexico were actually welcoming in those poor huddled masses instead of saying "Sure, we'll let you pass on through to the US, just don't plan on staying here." Compared most of the Central America, Mexico is a rich country. This is one issue where even I think your hatred of Trump is blinding you to what's actually going on. Yes, Trump is using awful rhetoric to score political points against the Dems, and his base is being ugly and racist. But these people are not refugees! They are migrants coming from places that suck who would like to live in a place that doesn't suck. That place could be Mexico, but the US sucks even less than Mexico, so they don't want to move to Mexico, they want to move to the US. If "refugee" status is granted to anyone coming from a place that has a terrible economy and violent gangs who threaten people, we might as well say that half the world qualifies to move to the US. As per usual, I think Trump is going about this in the worst possible way, but I do not disagree with his basic position that we have no obligation to let these people in, and that tear-jerking stories about suffering back in their hometown should not motivate us to just trash our immigration laws. That said, most people believe the "caravan" is political theater all around, and that in a month or two there will only be a handful of stragglers still arriving at the border. But they are giving a gift to the anti-immigrationists, because no sensible person should be saying "Oh, those poor people, how can we deny them the American Dream?" But apparently there are a lot of people lacking sense. The sane and responsible thing for Trump to do would just be to say "When and if they arrive at the border, they will be processed like any other would-be entrant, and anyone who claims refugee status will have the criteria for political refugees strictly applied. Oh, here are those critera. (Hint: You ain't gonna qualify.)" Of course I know I used "Trump" and "sane and responsible" in the same sentence, so what's actually going to happen will be a shitshow.
You are mistaken in thinking that my position on this would be different were it not for Trump. If Bush or Romney or Clinton or Obama were pushing this line, I'd still think it was dangerous bullshit. To flip you on this, I think your position on immigration is blinding you to the dangers of the Trump administration's narrative on this. (1) The only real possible "danger" these people pose is economic. As I think you've acknowledged (if not, I'll provide the cites again), these people commit crimes at a lower level than citizens, and if you can show me a single terrorist act perpetrated by a Middle Eastern person smuggled in illegally over the southern border, I shall bake you a batch of cookies. I put "danger" in quotes because I think that the "danger" is at best overblown and quite possibly non-existent. In the family separation thread, I gave some cites indicating that migrants have generally proven to be an economic positive, not a negative. Even if they are a negative, though, spending exorbitant sums to keep them out and discourage them, taking aside any humanitarian concerns, ends up being pretty fucking expensive too -- quite possibly (probably?) more expensive. (2) Even if we assume that the economic danger is significant, that would in no way justify Trump's and Republican's demonizing these people as dangerous criminals and terrorists. "Othering" them in this way is false, it is racist, it is dangerous -- it plays to the very worst elements of human beings. Whatever one things about allowing the migrants in the country, we should be kicking and spitting on that narrative. (3) Even taking all that aside, again, these people are thousands of miles away. Other "caravans" have headed this way before. By the time they get to the border, they are much smaller, and those left have presented themselves at a port of entry and asked for asylum (which is -- guess what? entirely legal. but never mind). www.sfchronicle.com/politics/article/Here-s-what-happens-when-migrant-caravan-13327887.php That's almost certainly what would happen with this one. So, in other words, this is nothing close to an immediate emergency, even if it were an emergency at all (which it isn't). So why is it all over the fucking news as a fucking urgent big deal? The Trump administration, with the help of the click-bait crazy media, is trumpeting this all up as a yuuuuge and immediate danger, demonizing these people to play on the racist, xenophobic base to get up the midterm vote. To some extent, Trump is also playing to non-racist, non-xenophobic people who are worried about the economic effects -- whether or not they buy into the criminal terrorist bullshit, they are hyper-aware of the fact that this caravan of walking poor people is headed north and a mere couple of thousands of miles away. However you feel about allowing migrants in, the crazy bullshit about "well, maybe there might be Middle Easterners in there -- we don't know that there aren't" and "there may be criminals in there" and "ZOMG thousands of ferriners will be storming our borders any second, stealing our summer lake homes!" is unjustifiable, dangerous bullshit. And moreover, it is a pure distraction, aimed at pulling people's attention from far more important issues. I'm not blinded, Amadan. I just completely disagree that this caravan presents a yuuuuuge peril. I think the xenophobic crazy rhetoric around it is a far, far greater peril. I don't hate this shit because of Trump. I hate Trump because of shit like this. There's a difference. ETA: It still amazes me that not so very long ago, even the Republicans sounded like this:
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Post by Deleted on Oct 27, 2018 11:04:54 GMT -5
This guy's dead on, IMO:
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Post by Amadan on Oct 27, 2018 11:05:20 GMT -5
I think we don't really entirely disagree, though you would obviously be a lot laxer than I would about deciding who actually gets to enter the country. I don't think these people are dangerous per se. I think we do need to apply stringent vetting processes because, yes, criminal and terrorist organizations do actually use immigrant crossings as a means to infiltrate people, but no, that's not my primary concern. I don't really think they should be stopped because "There might be terrorists among them." But really, I could drop that argument entirely and I'd still be opposed to letting them enter because I flat-out do not believe we are obligated to, or should, take in everyone who wants to come here just because their life would be better here. And I think we are pretty much the only country in the world that seems to be expected to do that. And no, I do not believe the vast majority of those people qualify as "refugees" under any reasonable definition. The reason I bring up Trump is because, whether or not this is you, a lot of liberals have basically suspended all judgment about whether or not everyone who wants to come here should be allowed to because of two magic words: "Trump" and "refugee." Put them together, and you have a narrative being crafted about the Trump administration being fascist monsters refusing to accept desperate refugees because of racism. You yourself have invoked the MS St. Louis when talking about the administration's policies. It's not remotely an appropriate comparison. And yes, Trump is playing on that, deliberately. He fires up his genuinely racist base, drives liberals apeshit, and even his moderate supporters see liberals going nuts about wanting to let thousands of impoverished, unskilled illegal immigrants (what they would be in any other context) into the country because everything Trump does is by definition evil. This is one of those situations that makes me suspect that there might be something to the theory that Trump is a "master manipulator." I don't think he actually plans these things out on a strategic level - he's not that deep a thinker. But I think he has an intuitive grasp of how to push buttons on both sides to get the reaction he wants.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 29, 2018 15:49:27 GMT -5
I can't even.
-- They are weeks away.
-- They are unarmed, walking, and mostly women and children, from what I understand, and their destination is a point of entry (a legal approach).
-- Many of them will stay in Mexico. As has happened in the past, the group that ultimately arrives will be much smaller than it is now. Even if they all got here, do we need a national guard person per toddler? Really?
-- How much is this costing, exactly, compared to the actual threat they pose, if any?
It's all about the midterms and the base. The right has to remain in a frenzy about the caravan. And if some of the kookier ones get so frenzied they start shooting globalists, well, you can't make an omelet, amirite?
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Post by Deleted on Oct 29, 2018 21:29:09 GMT -5
I might propose to Shep Smith. The clip is short. Watch!
ETA:
My favorite part comes right after the bit they quote. To paraphrase: "Remember last time, when they got us all worked up about this before, in April? There were 14 arrests. We're the United States of America. I think we can handle it."
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Post by Deleted on Oct 29, 2018 22:01:44 GMT -5
Such an absurd misuse of our military resources.
Come on, even if the entire caravan made it, they are weeks away and unarmed, and these troops would actually far outnumber them. Come on.
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Post by gaild on Oct 30, 2018 2:41:43 GMT -5
What's the bet that after the mid-terms, all these troops are sent back to their base and we don't hear anything more about it?
Unless POTUS wants to distract your attention from what is happening with the Meuller investigation/trade deals/foreign policy etc.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 30, 2018 8:45:54 GMT -5
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