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Post by Optimus on Nov 11, 2018 20:16:04 GMT -5
It also boggles me that this incident seemed to have been talked about much more than the Thousand Oaks shooting. Ten people gunned down. Ho hum. Poor Tucker Carlson! I agree. This should be a non-story at this point and it really doesn't deserve the length of the news cycle it's gotten. However... This is disingenuous. One could just as easily say, "And what about t he suspected ricin letters sent to members of the Pentagon, Trump's family, and members of his cabinet? What ricin letters? Or the former Obama campaign volunteer who was just arrested for writing hateful anti-semitic messages in, and setting fire to, several Jewish synagogues in NY? What synagogues? Or that somebody (likely not a Republican) shot up a Republican campaign office in FL? And lest we forget when Bernie supporter James Hodgkinson went to a Congressional softball game in Alexandria, VA and shot 4 people because he was trying to assassinate members of the GOP? What bullets? fee.org/articles/the-danger-in-media-telling-only-half-the-story-on-political-violence/It's a silly game of lame "oh, yeah?!?!" whataboutism one-ups-manship that we can play all day. But it's a game nobody will win, because it's one in which we ultimately all lose. It would be much more fruitful if we could all agree that this shit is wrong when our side does it, and this shit is wrong when their side does it, because THIS SHIT IS WRONG WHEN ANYBODY DOES IT. Anything else that attempts to ignore or deflect from this fact is just petty tribalistic bullshit, gets us absolutely nowhere, and does not deserve to be taken as a serious argument. |
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Post by nighttimer on Nov 11, 2018 21:03:37 GMT -5
Ms. Kavanaugh would like to debunk Tucker Carlson's claim, but the way to do it is not to tell me what is in the official police report and interpret it how she wants. The way to do it is to show me the official police report and allow me to interpret it for myself.
Show, don't tell.
Barring that, I have no more reason to believe Kavanaugh than I do Carlson. In fact, I have less reason to believe Kavanaugh.
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Post by nighttimer on Nov 11, 2018 21:32:44 GMT -5
While we're talking about assaults on the Fourth Estate, it would be a grievous error to leave out The Assaulter-In-Chief. Specifically, when he set a personal record when last week he ripped into three Black journalists for the unforgivable sin of doing their jobs.  Feel sorry for Tucker Carlson all you want, but if Trump's contempt for Ryan, Alcindor and Philip when he tells them to "sit down" or "that's racist" or "that is a stupid question" means nothing to you, I can guarantee you Carlson's troubles will mean nothing to me. After the confrontation, Carlson tweeted, "People feel like they have to shut up. That they can't say what they think because they'll be punished. This has a chilling effect on everyone's ability to speak and think freely." Another journalist, Soledad O'Brien responded, "Yes well when you’re a racist, saying what you think might end up ousting you from your job. So yes, people will bash you when you take the white supremacist position that diversity is not a strength. Don’t be a racist." You can be a free thinker. It's when your free thoughts give aid and comfort to White supremacists, it's natural to ask if you're not a White supremacist yourself. It ain't complicated. |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 11, 2018 21:43:34 GMT -5
It also boggles me that this incident seemed to have been talked about much more than the Thousand Oaks shooting. Ten people gunned down. Ho hum. Poor Tucker Carlson! I agree. This should be a non-story at this point and it really doesn't deserve the length of the news cycle it's gotten. However... This is disingenuous. One could just as easily say, "And what about t he suspected ricin letters sent to members of the Pentagon, Trump's family, and members of his cabinet? What ricin letters? Or the former Obama campaign volunteer who was just arrested for writing hateful anti-semitic messages in, and setting fire to, several Jewish synagogues in NY? What synagogues? Or that somebody (likely not a Republican) shot up a Republican campaign office in FL? And lest we forget when Bernie supporter James Hodgkinson went to a Congressional softball game in Alexandria, VA and shot 4 people because he was trying to assassinate members of the GOP? What bullets? fee.org/articles/the-danger-in-media-telling-only-half-the-story-on-political-violence/It's a silly game of lame "oh, yeah?!?!" whataboutism one-ups-manship that we can play all day. But it's a game nobody will win, because it's one in which we ultimately all lose. It would be much more fruitful if we could all agree that this shit is wrong when our side does it, and this shit is wrong when their side does it, because THIS SHIT IS WRONG WHEN ANYBODY DOES IT. Anything else that attempts to ignore or deflect from this fact is just petty tribalistic bullshit, gets us absolutely nowhere, and does not deserve to be taken as a serious argument. I totally agree it's wrong no matter who does it. I agree that Both Sides Do Bad Things. My point in bringing up those recent events is that (rather bizarrely, IMO) although all of them happened recently or are ongoing, they've mostly dropped out of the front page news and twitter feeds, except for Tucker Carlson's thing, which continues to dominate. I could also have added Khashoggi's murder and some other things that seem to no longer be actively floating about in my Twitter feed. That seems odd to me, since they were all, IMO, a bigger deal than what actually happened to Tucker Carlson (especially given that he exaggerated it). FFS, ten people got gunned down last week, and the only people here to even comment on it are nighttimer and I, and I haven't seen a thing about it in my Twitter feed for a couple of days. Perhaps we've gotten numb to gun violence. But it's weird to me that people seem more worked up about (what likely did not happen to) Tucker's front door than that. Maybe I didn't state that clearly enough. I didn't so much mean "What about/the right does stuff too" as I did "wait, this one attack on a right wing figure, though less serious, generates more attention than all the other shit. It's like people are more vested in narratives about left-wing violence." I dunno, I sometimes feel like that stories coming out of the right -- the CARAVAN! TUCKER CARLSON"S DOOR! -- stick better in many people's memories. ETA: To be clear, I don't mean that as a "why aren't you talking about this stuff?!" reproach to forum members at all; not what I meant. It's a small group and people are gonna talk about what we want to talk about, and yeah, maybe all you can say about the shooting, etc. is "wow that sucks." But it's the general way that Tucker's thing dominates over those other stories in general, disproportionately IMO, that weirds me out. |
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Post by prozyan on Nov 11, 2018 22:10:19 GMT -5
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Post by Optimus on Nov 11, 2018 22:17:25 GMT -5
But it's the general way that Tucker's thing dominates over those other stories in general, disproportionately IMO, that weirds me out. I absolutely agree and I agree with your point that TC's story will - for better or worse - stick in some people's minds better than stories that turn out to be much more important. I lay most of the blame at the feet of the media, who* jump all over these more salacious, but eminently less important, stories only to later mount a pious high horse and engage in a "who farted?" kind of finger-pointing about why the "important issues" keep getting overshadowed by ultimately inconsequential trash. And, unfortunately, it's Trump who often fuels a lot of this. He takes advantage of this propensity by many in the media (driven by ratings and clicks) and works it to his advantage. It's gross and indefensible for a President to engage in these tactics, but it works for him 100% of the time. *I mean "as a group," because there are some individual journalists out there who don't do this and try their best to keep the real issues and important discussions front and center against a bulwark of bullshit. |
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Post by robeiae on Nov 12, 2018 11:39:02 GMT -5
Regardless of the severity of the harassment, it's not OK to harass someone and/or their family in their private lives for any reason, least of all for their political speech. If it's not OK to do it to Dr. Ford, it's not OK to do it to TC and his family either (spoiler alert: it's not OK in either situation). If a person believes differently, then their thinking lacks logical coherence. Just as happens on the far right, some parts of the far left just can't help bathing in its own hypocrisy sometimes. Agree. But as regards Carlson: 1) I think there's a good chance that he's exaggerating what happened at his home. Doesn't make the assclowns who went there anything less than assclowns, however. 2) And I really can't get behind his "they're trying to silence me!" shtick. Man, I really hate it when people play that particular martyr card. Protesting or otherwise disagreeing with someone over what they have said isn't automatically some sort of totalitarian effort to silence them. Such total bs. And a bunch of loser protesters aren't going to silence a guy with a media platform like Carlson's, anyway. 3) On the country club incident, Michael Avenatti is now representing the guy who Carlson says insulted his daughter (shocking, right?). There's some video out there of the confrontation that Avenatti says exonerates his client. I think it does exactly the opposite. The video shows Carlson and his son totally enraged, but over what? Avenatti would have people believe they just picked out his client at random and went after him. But that doesn't track at all. It looks much more like a complete set-up on the part of his client, really. |
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Post by Optimus on Nov 12, 2018 12:12:57 GMT -5
The Dems (and the world in general) would be better off if Avenatti would just go away. He's quickly devolved into an ambulance-chasing, glory-thirsty joke.
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Post by nighttimer on Nov 12, 2018 20:54:21 GMT -5
3) On the country club incident, Michael Avenatti is now representing the guy who Carlson says insulted his daughter (shocking, right?). There's some video out there of the confrontation that Avenatti says exonerates his client. I think it does exactly the opposite. The video shows Carlson and his son totally enraged, but over what? Avenatti would have people believe they just picked out his client at random and went after him. But that doesn't track at all. It looks much more like a complete set-up on the part of his client, really. The Dems (and the world in general) would be better off if Avenatti would just go away. He's quickly devolved into an ambulance-chasing, glory-thirsty joke. Michael Avenatti should go away. One day after Donald Trump goes away and not one minute sooner. Avenatti isn't my guy, but he does have a way of annoying the fuck out of both Trump and his apologists/enablers so if he accomplishes nothing beyond that it suits me just fine. |
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Post by Optimus on Nov 12, 2018 21:11:07 GMT -5
The Dems (and the world in general) would be better off if Avenatti would just go away. He's quickly devolved into an ambulance-chasing, glory-thirsty joke. Michael Avenatti should go away. One day after Donald Trump goes away and not one minute sooner. Avenatti isn't my guy, but he does have a way of annoying the fuck out of both Trump and his apologists/enablers so if he accomplishes nothing beyond that it suits me just fine. I'm fine with Avenatti being a fly in Trump's ointment, bug up his ass, wind in his hair-piece, etc. But nowadays he seems to do more harm than good. First with Swetnick and now I don't see this going any better for him. He's basically become a meme at this point and someone that the Republicans can use as a poster child for far-left overreach every time he opens his mouth. If he were actually being effective for the left, I wouldn't mind him so much. But I think he actually hurts us every time he chases after the cameras. Because that's his main problem; he isn't pursuing the truth, he's pursuing fame. |
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Post by robeiae on Nov 12, 2018 21:46:52 GMT -5
Yeah, I think Avenatti did real damage to the albeit slim chances the Dems had of derailing the Kavanaugh nomination and--more importantly--he made things worse for Ford by pushing a highly questionable story from a less-than-trustworthy source.
He's really not helping anyone and he's not really annoying Trump's crowd, so much as he is providing useful ammo for the same, who get to point to Avenatti as an example of someone on the left who makes things up out of whole cloth.
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Post by nighttimer on Nov 12, 2018 23:59:22 GMT -5
Michael Avenatti should go away. One day after Donald Trump goes away and not one minute sooner. Avenatti isn't my guy, but he does have a way of annoying the fuck out of both Trump and his apologists/enablers so if he accomplishes nothing beyond that it suits me just fine. I'm fine with Avenatti being a fly in Trump's ointment, bug up his ass, wind in his hair-piece, etc. But nowadays he seems to do more harm than good. First with Swetnick and now I don't see this going any better for him. He's basically become a meme at this point and someone that the Republicans can use as a poster child for far-left overreach every time he opens his mouth. If he were actually being effective for the left, I wouldn't mind him so much. But I think he actually hurts us every time he chases after the cameras. Because that's his main problem; he isn't pursuing the truth, he's pursuing fame. Is Michael Avenatti using his sudden fame (or notoriety, if you prefer) to his benefit and to the detriment of the Democrats? Yes. Yes, he certainly is, but what of it? Did he hurt the Dems in the Kavanaugh confirmation? Possibly, but I'd like to see some post-election polling and proof that he did as much harm to the Dems as you assume he has. Is an Avenatti more damaging to the Dems than Kanye West is to the Repubs? I don't think so. IF there were a way to get Avenatti to cease and desist I'm sure Tom Perez and the DNC would be happy to know what it is. But if Avenatti pisses off Trump and the Trumpettes, I'm not seeing the problem here. If Faux News and Tucker C. want to go toe-to-toe with the "Creepy Porn Lawyer" I'm sure Avenatti is only too happy to accommodate them. Shoot his cat and he kills your dog.  Eh, it's not as though Carlson didn't bring this shit on himself. Who's worse? The guy cheating on his pregnant wife with a porn star or the guy defending her?  Yeah, I think Avenatti did real damage to the albeit slim chances the Dems had of derailing the Kavanaugh nomination and--more importantly--he made things worse for Ford by pushing a highly questionable story from a less-than-trustworthy source. He's really not helping anyone and he's not really annoying Trump's crowd, so much as he is providing useful ammo for the same, who get to point to Avenatti as an example of someone on the left who makes things up out of whole cloth. I'd rather have Michael Avenatti proving ammo for the Trump Zombies than all the batshit stuff Trump vomits up in his Tweets as well as shitheels like Ted Cruz, Steve King, Steve Bannon, Stephen Miller, Kelly Ann Conway, Betsy DeVos, Ryan Zinke, Paul Manifort, Corey Lewandowski, Jeff Sessions, Roger Stone, Omarosa, Ben Carson, Scott Pruitt, Rex Tillerson, Tom Price, and all the other disreputable thugs, mugs and pugs the Trump Administration is lousy with. If a publicity-addicted, porn star's lawyer is the worst representative the Left can be shamed by going into 2020, I'll take it. The Republicans tried to make Nancy Pelosi a blood-thirsty demon and she's still most likely to be the next Speaker of the House in 2019. Going into 2020, Avenatti will not be the standard bearer of the Democratic Party to take down Trump. But whomever he or she is emerges, I'm perfectly okay with him pissing off Trump. Trump has proved the conventional wisdom is often full of it. If he was underestimated, this attorney with a big mouth and a bigger ego is being overestimated. Nobody but Republicans and weak Democrats pay this guy any attention. Tom Steyer's money probably had more impact for the Dems than Avenatti's huffing and puffing. He's already shown how shooting from the lip can end up with you shooting yourself in the dick. Anyone preparing opposition research on Michael Avenatti already has plenty to work with and they would remiss if they failed to remind the Dems multi-ethnic coalition of Avenatti's belief on whom the next Democratic presidential candidate should be.
"“I think it better be a white male. When you have a white male making the arguments, they carry more weight. Should they carry more weight? Absolutely not. But do they? Yes.”Yeah, that's not gonna play well with the women and people of color who make up the only reason the Dems still exist as a political entity. Avenatti should be shunned and ignore as a self-promoting hustler, but he sees how that worked out for Trump so he feels like why not him? The more he's being hated on only nourishes Avenatti and makes him stronger. The Left used to feel the same way about Ann Coulter and if she didn't embarrass and hurt the Right, I'm fairly confident the major impact Avenatti will have in 2020 will be minimal. |
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Post by robeiae on Nov 13, 2018 9:18:25 GMT -5
I'd rather have Michael Avenatti proving ammo for the Trump Zombies than all the batshit stuff Trump vomits up in his Tweets as well as shitheels like Ted Cruz, Steve King, Steve Bannon, Stephen Miller, Kelly Ann Conway, Betsy DeVos, Ryan Zinke, Paul Manifort, Corey Lewandowski, Jeff Sessions, Roger Stone, Omarosa, Ben Carson, Scott Pruitt, Rex Tillerson, Tom Price, and all the other disreputable thugs, mugs and pugs the Trump Administration is lousy with. So would I, but it's not an either-or situation. Trump is gonna keep doing what he's doing, after all. Again, I don't think Avenatti is actually pissing off anyone in Trump's crowd, much less Trump, himself. He's become a useful foil for them; they get to point at him, feign outrage, and ramble on about how the attacks on the Trump crowd are based on set-ups and fabrications. I can't see how Avenatti's continued attention-seeking benefits anyone other than Trump and company. |
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Post by nighttimer on Nov 15, 2018 14:21:32 GMT -5
I'd rather have Michael Avenatti proving ammo for the Trump Zombies than all the batshit stuff Trump vomits up in his Tweets as well as shitheels like Ted Cruz, Steve King, Steve Bannon, Stephen Miller, Kelly Ann Conway, Betsy DeVos, Ryan Zinke, Paul Manifort, Corey Lewandowski, Jeff Sessions, Roger Stone, Omarosa, Ben Carson, Scott Pruitt, Rex Tillerson, Tom Price, and all the other disreputable thugs, mugs and pugs the Trump Administration is lousy with. So would I, but it's not an either-or situation. Trump is gonna keep doing what he's doing, after all. Again, I don't think Avenatti is actually pissing off anyone in Trump's crowd, much less Trump, himself. He's become a useful foil for them; they get to point at him, feign outrage, and ramble on about how the attacks on the Trump crowd are based on set-ups and fabrications. I can't see how Avenatti's continued attention-seeking benefits anyone other than Trump and company. I guess I don't see how Avenatti's continued attention-seeking hurts the Democrats. If he didn't exist, Trump and company would only find another Lefty boogeyman/woman to huff and puff about. As it stands, he may have received some attention in a way he didn't want it. |
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