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Post by Deleted on Jan 15, 2019 20:42:15 GMT -5
Just watched again after NT's post. And yeah, I didn't particularly focus on it the first time I watched, but there are actually several men in the video who are Black or look Hispanic -- in fact, as NT notes, the very first one is Black..
But the complaining is overwhelmingly, if not entirely, being done by White conservatives. The only thing I hear non-conservative dudes complaining about is that they find it a tad preachy.
Jesus, I can't believe I'm defending a freaking commercial.
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Post by celawson on Jan 15, 2019 21:00:22 GMT -5
Yes, of course there are some black and latino-appearing men in the ad. But not one is engaging in the toxic behavior. Those are all white. That's not my main beef about this ad, though.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 15, 2019 21:24:33 GMT -5
#NotAllWhiteConservativeMen
(Tom's one of my fave NeverTrumpers on Twitter. Very smart, very good sense of humor, very knowledgeable, and if you convince him he made a bad take, he'll acknowledge it. He's also got an obsession about people who go barefoot on planes, but that's another story.)
I think if a guy told me he was "offended" by the ad (as opposed to not liking this sort of ad as a general principle, with which I can sympathize), he'd go immediately to my "do not date" and "do not work for" list. My first thought would be -- dude is defensive, and thinks that kind of behavior, at least some of it, is okay.
I'm curious, c.e. -- is your husband offended by the ad?
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Post by nighttimer on Jan 15, 2019 21:25:56 GMT -5
Just watched again after NT's post. And yeah, I didn't particularly focus on it the first time I watched, but there are actually several men in the video who are Black or look Hispanic -- in fact, as NT notes, the very first one is Black.. But the complaining is overwhelmingly, if not entirely, being done by White conservatives. The only thing I hear non-conservative dudes complaining about is that they find it a tad preachy. Well, we can't do anything about the melting glaciers and we can't do anything about schoolkids being slaughtered in their classrooms and we can't do anything about making already underpaid TSA workers go without their paychecks, but by GAWD AND SONNY JEEZUS WE GOTTA DO SOMETHIN' ABOUT A RAZOR COMMERCIAL!!!!
The best comment I've read to this idiocy is, "I don’t know if Gillette razors cut into hair better than other razors, but nothing cuts into a person better than the truth. They’re mad because deep down, they know it’s true." Mad about a razor commercial. Okay. I got nothin'. Martin Luther King Jr. would have been 90 years old today. If a White racist hadn't put a bullet in his head. But who gives a fuck about that. Let's get mad about razor blades.
Jesus wept.
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Post by celawson on Jan 15, 2019 21:35:25 GMT -5
I'm curious, too. And I wanted to show it to him tonight, but he rushed home from work to "pre-eat" before meeting his friend at a sports bar to watch the Warriors game. (His best friend from high school comes into town several times a year on business, and this game is not on regular tv.) I'm having trouble predicting what he will say. On the one hand, he's meeting his friend at the sports bar to watch basketball. On the other hand, he "pre-ate" because he's a vegan.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 15, 2019 21:42:05 GMT -5
Hey, at least conservatives are all good with boycotts again.
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Post by celawson on Jan 15, 2019 21:43:37 GMT -5
Just watched again after NT's post. And yeah, I didn't particularly focus on it the first time I watched, but there are actually several men in the video who are Black or look Hispanic -- in fact, as NT notes, the very first one is Black.. But the complaining is overwhelmingly, if not entirely, being done by White conservatives. The only thing I hear non-conservative dudes complaining about is that they find it a tad preachy. Well, we can't do anything about the melting glaciers and we can't do anything about schoolkids being slaughtered in their classrooms and we can't do anything about making already underpaid TSA workers go without their paychecks, but by GAWD AND SONNY JEEZUS WE GOTTA DO SOMETHIN' ABOUT A RAZOR COMMERCIAL!!!!
The best comment I've read to this idiocy is, "I don’t know if Gillette razors cut into hair better than other razors, but nothing cuts into a person better than the truth. They’re mad because deep down, they know it’s true." Mad about a razor commercial. Okay. I got nothin'. Martin Luther King Jr. would have been 90 years old today. If a White racist hadn't put a bullet in his head. But who gives a fuck about that. Let's get mad about razor blades.
Jesus wept.
NT, I made a conscious decision to post about this instead of something political, because I wanted a diversion from all of the serious stuff for a few minutes. It's not that people don't care about the other stuff, it's that sometimes it's nice to toss around more frivolous thoughts on more frivolous subject matter.
I kind of felt the way you describe after my medical internship. I had just been witness to pretty horrible stuff for an intense year - disease and death and pain and suffering. And honestly, I just couldn't get excited about stuff like watching sports anymore. And I used to be a huge football and baseball fan. It took me a while to enjoy stuff like that again, but never to the level I did before I became a doctor. Which is sad, really, because we only live once and there should be joy, too.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 15, 2019 21:46:46 GMT -5
I'm curious, too. And I wanted to show it to him tonight, but he rushed home from work to "pre-eat" before meeting his friend at a sports bar to watch the Warriors game. (His best friend from high school comes into town several times a year on business, and this game is not on regular tv.) I'm having trouble predicting what he will say. On the one hand, he's meeting his friend at the sports bar to watch basketball. On the other hand, he "pre-ate" because he's a vegan. I'm betting he's not offended. But I'm curious. I haven't seen a single "I'm offended!" on twitter from anyone who wasn't hard-core right.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 15, 2019 21:52:31 GMT -5
To note -- it has not been ratioed on Twitter -- it has 314K likes.
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Post by Optimus on Jan 15, 2019 22:26:42 GMT -5
I just watched it a third time. I still think the underlying message is a good one (despite it being awash in far-leftist gobbledygook), as I said, and I think a bunch of people are being big crybabies in overreacting to it, but I also think Gillette delivered it in a really ham-fisted way and I think it's groan-worthy when consumer brands try to make money off of sociocultural and political issues. It's fine to both like something for its good qualities while criticizing it for its bad. Sort of like the commercial is doing with men.
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Post by celawson on Jan 15, 2019 23:55:28 GMT -5
So I just showed the video to my husband, without setting him up for it in any way except to tell him Gillette released an ad that was getting a lot of attention. This is his immediate response: "A lot of it didn't ring true. It's clearly pandering and trying to take advantage of the current climate. He has no feelings about it whatsoever. The idea of stopping using Gillette's products wouldn't have occurred to him. He might give it a thumbs down on You Tube because it was a little over the top. But he appreciated the heart of the message. And he said he hopes he didn't let anyone down on TCG, LOL.
EDITED TO ADD: OMG, I just read Optimus' post after I posted my latest, and he and my husband think exactly alike on this.
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Post by Don on Jan 16, 2019 6:00:10 GMT -5
I like Opty's take too, and I think NT nailed it: this is the latest two-minute hate, to keep important topics off the table and the extremes at each other's throats. Divide and conquer never fails.
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Post by robeiae on Jan 16, 2019 9:17:00 GMT -5
Nice try, robeiae, but next time try just a smidge harder and mix in a few actual facts in to go along with the unsubstantiated opinion. ? I said Gillette is losing market share on a daily basis. That's true, I think, given that it's market share has been going down for six straight years (probably seven, now). In the US, it's market share has gone from 70% in 2010 to less than 50% in 2017. Gillette's big price cut--12%, a substantial amount--in 2017 was an attempt to counter these steady losses. And it was the result of a huge proxy war. It went like this: P&G's board were the old stuffed shirts insisting everything was fine, there was no need to change. Some stockholders said "everything is not fine, dumbassees, we need to change or we're going to keep losing." And the latter group won, forcing P&G to make changes, including dropping the prices of its blades (because everyone with half a brain knew they were getting screwed by Gillette on this). Gillette also bought out The Art of Shaving to stem the bleeding. You know, I bet--actually, I'm quite certain--there were a ton of people insisting there was nothing wrong at Sears back in the late 80s and early 90s, that losing a little market share in brands like Whirlpool and Craftsman was no big deal, that it was still way too big and way too diverse for there to be anything to worry about...
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Post by Vince524 on Jan 16, 2019 13:13:37 GMT -5
I've seen this unravel for the last few days. I haven't had a chance to watch it really until now.
Here are my 2 cents, which I'm sure isn't worth 1/2 that.
1st off, the add is or should be speaking to men. Not women. That'a who they're trying to speak to. Women may or may not agree. (I've seen a lot of hate from Moms of sons.) However, women can't be better men. They can be better women. We can all be better people. But no, you can't be a better man.
The idea behind the commercial is to spread the message, be a better man. In an of itself, never a bad message. We can all be better.
It's the delivery. Some men already are, they say.
That makes it sound like most men are not. The shy nerd who can't manage to get up the nerve to even talk to the pretty girl. The pastor who has spent his life serving his community. The men who have died defending loved ones through the years. Or work hard, sometimes dangerous jobs.
The dads who play princess and tea with their little girl.
We're talking about a stereotype of men. And men must prove they aren't that stereotype.
On FB, an author friend said she was so disgusted and asked what men are doing to address sexual assault. Do they listen to a survivor, have they ever offered to escort a woman home. Show her we're not bad guys. I replied that I'm not going to tell her, because when I speak to someone like that, or help someone, it's because it's the right thing to do, and not to prove I'm not a bad guy.
Historically, men, mostly white men, have had it easier. And we're losing some of that special status which isn't wrong. It isn't wrong that if I'm up for a position (Which I was) against mostly women (Which was the case) That I should expect to get it. I didn't. Was I disappointed? Sure, but I was thrilled for the woman who got it, cause she's a wonderful person, who's smart, caring and really could use that.
I'd have had an issue if someone said because we've given these positions to men, we're only going to consider women. Remember that thread about the college assistant teacher who called on white man only as a last resort?
White privilege really means I don't face the day to day challenges of someone who is a woman, because they're a woman, or someone who is black, because they're black. That's significant. We should stop and think how I can say, "My wife told me this..." And it's no big deal, but if I say, My husband told me this..." all of a sudden, I'm GAY VINCENT.
This commercial fails because it makes it sound like the men who aren't harassing, bullying, and rolling in their male privileged are the exception. We're not. Why not celebrate those of us who aren't, who do good, try our best, and make us the norm, and therefor the boys will be boys crowd become the outcasts?
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Post by Deleted on Jan 16, 2019 15:43:42 GMT -5
I really don't think it means to imply most men are bad. It's saying (perhaps a bit heavy-handedly), "look dudes, some guys out there act like douchebags sometimes. Don't be that guy. In fact, be the guy who calls those guys out. Be an affirmatively extra good guy."
We can question whether this message is best sent by a razor company. But I think, actually, it's a worthwhile message. It's not just that some guys behave badly. Very unfortunately, a lot of these guys behave badly to impress other guys. E.g., guys who catcall. Come on. How many guys get action by yelling "NICE TITS, BABY!" None, that's how many. But as women who walk by construction sites or gangs of youths on street corners know, it's not about that. It's about them showing their dudebros how cool they are. I think Trump calls it "locker room talk"...
And the mansplaining thing (the guy in the meeting going "I think what she really means to say is...") -- a lot of guys don't even realize they are doing it. I've had a zillion guys try to educate me on things I actually know waaaaay more about than they do. Like law, for example. And yeah, it's always a guy doing it. It's douche behavior.
Think of the arguments made to defend Brett Kavanaugh's behavior. Let's face it, if he did that shit (and I think he did at least some of it, e.g., Christine Ford), he did it to impress Squi and P.J. Even if he didn't do it, a lot of other young guys do. We've all been in high school and college. Are you gonna tell me you've never seen guys act like douches with girls to impress other dudes?
So what the commercial is trying to do, I think is to say "look, call the douches out. let them know their behavior disgusts you, not impresses you. Don't just be silent."
And it's adding "Yo, if you're doing that 'what she really means to say is...' or calling a woman strident or cutting her off constantly in meetings etc." -- yeah, it's actually pretty sexist and women get a lot of it, so be aware of that, and by the way, please think twice about calling them "hysterical" "strident" and "shrill" and consider if you'd say the same if a man were doing exactly the same thing." It's not the same kind of douche, and a lot of guys don't even realize they're doing it -- I think the commercial is pointing it out.
Heavy-handed, maybe -- but the guys who call this shit out instead of shutting up are really helpful. In some instances, the Brett-Kavanaugh-y alleged situation ones, they might stop a girl from being raped. Douche men are more likely to listen to other men than they are to the women, whom the frankly don't respect in the first place. Stop and picture your wife or mom or daughter or sister in the position of the woman, and ask yourself how you'd feel.
It's ADDRESSED to the good guys, IMO. Not to say "oh, you suck, man-person" but to say "Keep being a good guy. And be an extra good guy -- help call out the bad guys."
Again, a commercial is maybe not the best place for it. But I think that's the intent.
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